to think WFH is going to permanent for most who have switched?

[elmouno]

I was chatting with someone earlier and I said that most people currently working from home will be working from home now permanently. There will be no switch back to the offices in the city.

The other person disagreed and said people will have to go back. If they don't too much of the city economies will collapse which will affect the overall economy (i.e. no coffee, lunch, rail tickets, cleaners etc) that it would be catastrophic.

I'm guessing that businesses will be forced to change, but maybe not? Am I being unreasonable to assume that all the people now working from home will be doing so permanently?

I think more ppl will go back into offices, especially at the start of 2021. In order to get clarity and so people could organise their lives the company I work for (plus 2 others I know of) said people would be wfh until at least Jan 2021.

I think we will go back say 1 day a week or so. There weren't enough desks for us anyway and had lots of hot desking so probably they will solve that by redundancies and less office working. I don't really see them getting everyone back in all the time - mostly because we've exceed targets for delivery since Covid19 and many management are working from 2nd homes anyway. I also think that whilst the virus is still around getting in/our via lifts and stairs will be slow.

How would that have worked on line? How would I even know who to ask? I would have had to email the whole team, wait for a response, hope Carl had seen the email and had the info to hand. We would have got there in the end but it would have been much slower. This is the reality for many companies, and they won't accept it long term

There are two possible reasons the ‘digital’ method would have been slower and neither are due to WFH. It’s either the company lack of infrastructure in place (which they can change and expect staff to get on with it) or individuals’ attitude/reluctance to change.

I’m now WFH full time since March. I work for a multi-national company in a role where having that general ‘hey who knows how to xyz’ shout out ability is essential.

Work have installed a company instant messenger system. Easy. When I have a general ‘shout out’ question I just do it digitally to 5/10/50 people - whatever’s needed and, as all staff are expected to be available on the messaging system all day, it makes zero difference to the time taken - I get responses in writing straight away.

We have had a few feet draggers - those that are reluctant to adapt to the new tech and new way of working. They raise objections and make excuses about how much more difficult to communicate it is on the IM system when it really, really isn’t - they’d just prefer not to.

IMO I think it’s more likely that those reluctant to adapt will be front of the line for redundancies rather than companies moving heaven and earth to get people into an office when WFH is much cheaper for them all round.

Personally for anyone WFH ‘temporarily’ at the moment i’d be VERY wary about raising any official objections at present about set up.

My company have sent mass surveys to staff asking about WFH and I know a handful of people who’ve strongly objected to it, stating the list of reasons WFH isn’t practical for them - because they don’t like it and think it will force the business to allow them back. Eek. Personally I think they’ve just lined themselves up for redundancy when the company announce all contracts are changing to permanent WFH and they’ve already explicitly stated they can’t do this sort of role long term.

I've been WFH since lockdown started, spending many hours on Zoom. One of the many advantages that I found, apart from not having to commute and drive round visiting companies, is being able to dress more casually from the waist down - I've not worn a skirt since March for instance, and tights seem to be a thing of the past.

I've been asked to start going into the office again from next week and not looking forward to it, apart from the socialising aspect. I think that Covid will have fundamentally changed the pattern of work for many of us, going into the office one day per week perhaps.
And as for the impact on HS2, don't get me started!

This pandemic has had the biggest impact on society since World War 2. So it will result in lasting chances. I work for an IT company of 10 employees. I am the only person who has not been back in the office since lockdown. I am the only person who lives by themselves-my work productivity had improved as I have fewer distractions. I want to continue to WFH after the pandemic as I do not see the point of wasting 2 and a half hours a day commuting. Before the pandemic there was a shortage of qualified people in my sector to fill all the jobs. When that situation returns,I foresee that a large number of job-seekers will demand that all or some of their work will be WFH-and employers will then have to agree to be able to fill their positions. And,no,I do not think that will result in significant off-shoring of jobs-in the past that had resulted in very mixed results (due to time,language and working-culture differences).

My second sentence should have ended with "lasting changes.".

We have had a few feet draggers - those that are reluctant to adapt to the new tech and new way of working. They raise objections and make excuses about how much more difficult to communicate it is on the IM system when it really, really isn’t - they’d just prefer not to

I don't like IM - it's very intrusive. And you are actually allowed to leave your desk from time to time, whether it's to go to the loo or make a drink. Or you could be in a meeting. However, that doesn't stop me collaborating quickly and in real time, it just means I prefer email to do it. Or I'll pick up the phone.

@CountFosco

The coffee shop thing is very based on big cities with areas where no-one lives. My town centre is busier than ever and now DH and I are both at home and not paying for petrol we're having lunch out regularly. We use to take packed lunches to work every day.

Yes, my local town is now getting my lunch spend. (I don't work in the same place I live.)

My office is based on an industrial estate with an on-site canteen and a few nearby fast food places, so the local town centre wasn't getting our business anyway.

I think there may be a rebalancing/moving about of sandwich and coffee places rather than a collapse. I hope so anyway.

No. Maybe for big companies they will have a large percentage working from home. We work for / part own a small but very profitable online retailer - WFH hasn’t worked. The other owner is very outspoken, says it like it is - and he didn’t see it working well at all and now has us all back in, but all the staff thought they were more productive... we had projects go tits up which would never have happened previous to this. It’s not as productive as people think and it really depends on the company - there are many many small companies in the UK that it simply won’t work long term for.

Well i don’t work in the “city”. Not every office job is there. Im already back in the office and its where we should be.

I see what you are saying, RubixMania, but many companies are very far from digitising all their information. The paperless office has been mooted for decades - it's still a long way off. We still need files /drawings. We DO have a shout-out system in place for the WFH people, but the questioner still has to go through the replies (which others have to write, even if it's "Don't have info"). Asking a real person is FTF is often just more efficient.

I'm not a foot dragger by the way (I'm very tech savvy), just somebody who has worked in design led environments for a long time, and as I said previously, WFH will work well for some workplaces but not for all.

Our place is in no hurry to get my team back. We've shown we can wholly work from home with no impact to productivity. In fact, there's been a slight increase.

Interesting different approaches.

We live in an area that's outside M25 but an easy commute to the City, so full of families with one or both parents commuting in. (I work locally, dh would normally be in London).

From both dcs classes, the parents at home are still at home, theres some talk of one or two days a week after October/New Year, one dad has been told it would be one week in one at home ( the least helpful for childcare planning !). The assumption that 5 days a week in the City is a thing of the past. Some banks are using their disaster recovery sites outside the city and offering staff who need somewhere quiet to work to go there a day or 2 a week.

The bank dh works for has let a floor go. They might cut more space when tenancy breaks allow. Staff are covering the heating, lighting, furniture costs. Most are using their own printers and ink. The costs to the staff are balanced with a £25 a day saving from not buying train tickets.

One thing that has been noticed, part time staff are expected to be able to log in to zooms etc whenever needed as they are there at home, where as it was fine for them to miss meetings that happened in the office on days they weren't in.

YANBU OP. My office never closed, wish it would I'd love to WFH 😂.

I'm in Australia and where I work it is a huge rigmarole to get approval for people to work from home 1 day per week. 2 days WFH are only in exceptional circumstances. I think it is rather ridiculous. Other places are much more flexible and some haven't returned 100% to the office.

It all seems so random. I’m in Australia in a major capital city (not Melb) and our company and most I know of in my current industry are wfh and have to fight tooth and nail to get into the office for a day - need to provide evidence it’s for a critical task that absolutely can’t be done otherwise which is practically impossible, to the point they are organising courier from home to home if you physically need to transfer something to a colleague or for any hard copy mail you need to send (some docs are wet signature only). It’s batshit tbh.

One thing that has been noticed, part time staff are expected to be able to log in to zooms etc whenever needed as they are there at home, where as it was fine for them to miss meetings that happened in the office on days they weren't in

I think that was kind of fine when people were in lockdown and had nowhere to go except the supermarket and out for a walk, but that's not acceptable now. I work part-time and although I keep an eye on emails outside working hours, if I am out I am out when someone wants me. That said, if I am at home, and there's a meeting, I'll join it.

What I don't understand is anyone making drastic changes for full WFH like moving home to areas that aren't necessarily good for commutes. Whilst your job might be full WFH at the moment I would want to hold off a year or two to see how the majority of employers act especially as unemployment is likely going to increase and I would want to be in a place that wouldn't limit my chances of getting another job

Totally agree with this.

Also agree with that. I know three people who have decided to move away from the city as they’ve not been going in. They don’t know what will happen!

I’m advising a company currently whose employment contract includes on call duties and a requirement to be no more than 30 minutes from a particular site. Whilst they implemented full WFH during Covid one employee took it upon himself to move 4 hours away without any discussion and when it came to light demanded a contract change to make him WFH permanently. They are now in the process of disciplining him and I don’t think he realises he could lose his job due to his breach of the contract.

This is my thinking too. Obviously I don’t know any more than anyone else about how things will pan out but I foresee possible big tax grabs on companies who close offices etc to keep staff wfh to increase profits. The government want people back in offices and I reckon they will penalise companies who prevent this.

I too have wondered about this.

It's likely, I think, to be a balancing exercise. Different parts of their support/potential support have polarised views about wfh. White collar workers who don't want to be forced back in, business owners who resent the interference... then on the other hand commercial property owners, people who know their pensions are partially reliant on city centre rents. Not sure they'll give much of a fuck either way about people working in Costa, Pret etc.

Then it occurs that, if there do end up being tax implications for not having offices, some companies will find it cheaper to rent somewhere smaller in the sticks and rota workers to come in once a fortnight, even subbing travel if necessary, rather than keep renting large spaces in prime commercial locations. Eg why retain the big premises in Manchester City Centre when you could get somewhere in Wigan?

@Magicbabywaves

Also agree with that. I know three people who have decided to move away from the city as they’ve not been going in. They don’t know what will happen!

That's bonkers!

Our office space has reduced to a third of what it was with no mention of it increasing any time soon. This is public sector.

I wonder if people will start voting with their feet. My role is WFH anyway, I took a slight pay cut for it. It's what I value most. If others are the same, people may focus on those jobs.

I’m not sure what all theses WFH jobs are but every time I have tried to get hold of a customer service department to answer a query or sort something out, it has been longwinded if not impossible. I definitely think all public service departments related to direct customer care should go back.

I also feel very sorry for young people starting out in their careers, unable to build relationships with colleagues in the same way. In my career, especially when younger, I gained so much by working alongside older and more experienced colleagues.

Paying winter fuel bills is likely to prove an issue for many people where I work. The company won't pay expenses citing that most people are saving on commuting costs. Which fails to realise that most people with large commuting costs are the more senior managers, who also tend to have space and home offices at home. Whereas the lower paid staff tend to live within walking or cycling distance or very short (5-10 minute drive) commute from work, and are also the ones more likely to be working whilst sitting on their bed because they don't have any other space.

I wonder if people will start voting with their feet. My role is WFH anyway, I took a slight pay cut for it. It's what I value most. If others are the same, people may focus on those jobs.

And equally people may vote with their feet the other way. I like working in an office and being able to collaborate with others. If my job becomes permanent wfh, I will be looking for another office based job (so perhaps those who like wfh and those who don't will naturally settle in the "right" jobs!)