Was I unreasonable to rig the school council election?

[Coffeeandteach]

I can tell you who will win when I look at the list of candidates. Every year it annoys me that some lovely, often overlooked, somewhere in the middle child will put themselves forward and read a thoughtful speech (written all on their own, at school) but never wins. They lose out to either the most popular or the most able child.

The child who got the most votes today had a speech that consisted of only, "I should win because I am the most popular."

I broke. I rigged it. The lovely, overlooked, somewhere in the middle child was announced the winner and she was delighted (and will do a great job).

YABU- You are the Putin of teachers. Shame on you!

YANBU- Sometimes you have to help the little guy

Advise*

And actually, I might say that they should only vote if they can witness the count as well.

Again, I wouldn't even object if teachers changed it so that they appointed the children they liked without the pantomime of a completely bogus election. Virtue signalling crap. Oh look, we are so inclusive and let the children elect their peers (except we don't cos we know better than they do even if we only met the children in queation two days ago). I bet the parents don't know this is so wide spread either when you tell them how the kids will be getting to participate in an election. If this was done in any other business btw, you'd probably all get fired for gross misconduct. 😂

Why are we still discussing how nice the children are? That isn't the point. We elect absolute cunts in this country all the time. You don't see teacher popping by and saying "no, boris alexander is actually quite a naughty boy. We aren't going to take any of those votes into account". I have never and would never vote Tory in my life btw. But, I may not agree with what the electorate says, but I will defend to the death their right to say it...to misquote Locke.

It's the royal hypocrisy of holding elections and letting children think they have a choice when they haven't. It's like a third world dictatorship. Crooked elections are worse than no elections at all. Teachers who do this should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Change the system if it's not working but stop the cheating.

That royal should be total. Autocorrect. Still it about fits in here.

BigBlondeBimbo
Why are we still discussing how nice the children are? That isn't the point
It is when replying to claims that popular kids are only popular because they're lovely and anyone saying otherwise mustn't understand.

That's the beauty of threads. People can discuss other issues linked to an OP.

@pallisers

Of course you rigged it. And it was you who had no respect for the process. you decided that your opinion on the candidates was more important than the voters.

On the scale of things in a school election where you feel you are doing good - not exactly putin is it. But yes you rigged an election and had no respect for the democratic process.

I would strongly suggest you read Miss Pym Disposes by Jospehine Tey btw.

I have read it - it's one of my favourite books. I'm not sure it's a great analogy though!

Unless you mean how Innes felt about the outcome of the placement, having been the favourite?

LolaSmiles, that's such a sad way to see the world.

As a teacher, you can influence the children in many ways. I am sure there are horrible children out there, maybe encouraged by the attitude of their parent.

I've just seen a lovely post by a high school student few days ago on other forum. He simply put his gum in the bin. The janitor saw it, and thanked him. He asked "for what?", and janitor said for putting rubbish in the bin. He thanked him for the work he does. The high schooler was moved enough to post what happened. It must have changed his view of the world forever.

If teachers think some children are up themselves and horrible, why don't they do anything about it to change who they are and how they act, teachers are the most influential people for the children attending school.

@LolaSmiles

BigBlondeBimbo Why are we still discussing how nice the children are? That isn't the point It is when replying to claims that popular kids are only popular because they're lovely and anyone saying otherwise mustn't understand.

That's the beauty of threads. People can discuss other issues linked to an OP.

@LolaSmiles

Nobody has said that. They have responded to the claim that popular is a negative and the implication that all popular kids are bullies. They are only saying, that popular doesn't necessarily mean that. You do not need to continually repeat that popular kids can be so, only because other kids are scared of them. It was already implied in the OP.

Both things are true. Some kids are bullies and this means other kids do what they say. I would argue 'popular' isn't the right word in those cases.

Also, some kids are popular because they are generally good eggs.

I have also noticed that some kids who are popular among the teachers aren't actually very nice to their peers.

This is why it's nice that both the children and the teachers have their say sometimes...except when the children have their say, the lesson seems to be, that doesn't count unless teacher approves.

It's actually all a bit controlling and creepy if I'm honest.

WaltzfortheMars
Not a horrible way to view the world, just realistic. Nobody wakes up at 18 and has a personality transplant. As s teacher I've seen some wonderful children be popular for all the right reasons and I've seen cliques have more sway than they deserve. Equally, I've seen helicopter parents who call up every time their child didn't get the opportunity they wanted because as far as they were concerned their child was obviously better than everyone else and has always had the roles in primary. I've also seen staff fall into giving opportunities to the same few and that leads to other talented students being overlooked.

That's why I think things are a lot less black and white than those arguing 'popular kids are popular because they're obviously nicer than everyone else' and other nonsense.

I can only speak for myself, but I do mentor students who need additional support, do get involved to resolve issues surrounding unpleasant behaviour, do find ways to give students in cliques ways to use their influence in a more positive way, do identify students who I think would be good at opportunities and suggest they give it a try (some do, others don't but at least they realise they're noticed for being them and not being mates with the 'right' people).

There's lots that everyone can do, but we have to stop wearing rose tintent glasses when it comes to viewing a chosen few students.

I have done similar, OP. I had a boy in my year six class who was a bloody bully and belonged to a family who were very well known in the area for drugs, guns, etc. This kid told everyone they needed to vote for him because he was a (Family name).
Rightly or wrongly I ensured that was not the outcome.

@BigBlondeBimbo

Advise*

And actually, I might say that they should only vote if they can witness the count as well.

Again, I wouldn't even object if teachers changed it so that they appointed the children they liked without the pantomime of a completely bogus election. Virtue signalling crap. Oh look, we are so inclusive and let the children elect their peers (except we don't cos we know better than they do even if we only met the children in queation two days ago). I bet the parents don't know this is so wide spread either when you tell them how the kids will be getting to participate in an election. If this was done in any other business btw, you'd probably all get fired for gross misconduct. 😂

I could never let them witness the count. Purely because there is always someone who gets zero votes 😱 I always say, "It was so close, there was only one vote in it!" They are only 8.

Next year, I'm going to read the 'manifestos' out and make who wrote them anonymous. I don't have a problem with 'popular' children by the way. They are all lovely in their own way. I just didn't want a child who put zero effort in to be voted because he is popular. But like a previous poster said, don't hate the player hate the game.

But for those of you who voted I was being unreasonable, I'll be contacting my mates at the Kremlin and get your votes removed 😉

I could never let them witness the count. Purely because there is always someone who gets zero votes 😱 I always say, "It was so close, there was only one vote in it!" They are only 8.

I said if my child was voting in an election, not standing to be elected. Obviously candidates can't witness the count for the elections they stand in.

I'll look out for any suspicious perfume packages coming my way though...you wag you .

Good idea changing the system. Shame it took a huge thread to make that idea come to you.

Lola, few years ago, my ds said something really interesting to me. There were few children volunteered for the sc role, his best mate, very popular/child of pta, was one of them. He didn't get it. I asked him if he voted for him. He said no, he voted for someone else, who had a great idea. I think I wouldn't have thought anything of it if my ds said he voted for his friend. It did open my eyes, that you should trust children, not undermine them.

How is it the popular child's fault? It isn't ok to change the result. The vote system should be adjusted or a maximum term introduced if it is always the same children. Popular children aren't always nasty either. This actually happened to me at school and it really pissed me off! As an ex-teacher I also wouldn't do this.

Next year, I'm going to read the 'manifestos' out and make who wrote them anonymous. I don't have a problem with 'popular' children by the way. They are all lovely in their own way. I just didn't want a child who put zero effort in to be voted because he is popular.
It was obvious what your concerns were and that you don't have an issue with children being popular, just popular children is such a weird topic on Mumsnet. If you mention it then it takes some people back to the playground themselves.

It's such a weird topic that there was a troll /PBP who'd start threads about popular girls in secondary school all the time.

WaltzfortheMars
As I've said, the OP would be better having a new system, which they've said they're going to.
Classroom and playground dynamics are usually less black and white than some adults suggest.

Your DC sounds lovely btw.

@WaltzfortheMars

Lola, few years ago, my ds said something really interesting to me. There were few children volunteered for the sc role, his best mate, very popular/child of pta, was one of them. He didn't get it. I asked him if he voted for him. He said no, he voted for someone else, who had a great idea. I think I wouldn't have thought anything of it if my ds said he voted for his friend. It did open my eyes, that you should trust children, not undermine them.

This is how it should work, well done your son I would suggest that pupils who are promising sweets and swimming pools etc are not having the role of the school council explained properly, which is not their fault

SmellsLikeFeet
I agree with you, though you'd be surprised how many times the same policies come up at secondary despite form tutors going through things.

One I have a bit of sympathy with is getting rid of school uniform, but it doesn't matter how many times tutors explain what the school council is doing, given examples of fairly large changes the school council has been involved in (at my recent schools it's not been tokenistic and students have put things on the school agenda), there's always some who say they'll push to get rid of school uniform or they want burgers and chips in the canteen every day.

@LolaSmikes I always say the things the council won't be able to change in the explanation of the school council.
It's amazing what they do come up with though. Wanting locks on toilet doors, a football rota. Just small things to us but makes life nicer for them
I definitely disagree with the poster who said that if a child misbehaves they are not allowed to stand. It should be open to everyone

There's lots that everyone can do, but we have to stop wearing rose tintent glasses when it comes to viewing a chosen few students.

I don't think anyone does. It seems you are deliberately misunderstanding what I, and others, are saying.

Your constant misuse of the word "popular"is at the root of this.

I was horrendous bullied by the "popular" kids at school, not just words but also physical abuse (fag burns), being hit/kicked, and having property stolen/damaged (rucksack torn open, games kit put down the loo etc). The teachers didn't take it seriously because they were the "popular" kids, popular with teachers too, so the teachers just didn't believe it. These were the kids in the school sports teams, the kids in the school plays, the kids who won the awards etc. A lot of their popularity amongst other kids was some kind of protection racket - kids sucked up to them so they wouldn't suffer the bullying.

How is it the popular child's fault?

Depends what they do to make them popular doesn't it??

Yaaaay! I was that kid, best intentions and bright but not the most popular so never won! It would have given me a massive confidence boost for years. Well done OP.x

Worse than that in our school they give half the house/vice captain roles to the not so well behaved kids (to encourage them to do better I guess) . My middle of the road kid couldn't understand why and reasoned that you need to be naughty to get a role. I did have words with the school on how they should present this to the kids .

loubeylou68smellsofreindeerpoo
I hate it when that happens too. It's so demotivating for the children who behave and work hard and are kind all the time to miss out under those circumstances.
I'm also not convinced it does motivate the children who don't behave either because they learn that they can get fast tracked by doing very little. It would make much more sense to have a range of strategies and opportunities to work with those who need support and additional encouragement, without sending a message to the majority of well behaved children that they're always going to come last.

SmellsLikeFeet
I agree with you. Opportunities such as school council should be open to all. There should be a selection process that ensures that those who get the roles have demonstrated their interest and skills.

I can recall a few situations where I've ran an enrichment opportunity and there's been issues about how people view 'the naughty' students. One occasion we launched at lunch and took a register of who attended,ran some taster sessions, and students had to apply. Staff allocated places based on the application.

Children A and B were lovely students (popular for the right reasons) who was keen to be involved in lots of opportunities. A couldn't attend the taster session so spoke to staff at a different time to get more information. Both wrote a good application and got a place.
Child C was a nice student, but known for not behaving well in some classes. They came to every taster session, wrote an amazing statement and got a place.
Child D was friends with A and B, nice student, again popular in a good way, but had previously been used to getting opportunities on a plate. They didn't attend the sessions, didn't speak to staff, wrote a half-assed application and didn't get a place. Their parent was upset that A and B got a place and D couldn't be with their friends, and we're furious that C got a place because nobody likes them / my child is popular / my child is picked for things because they are naturally better. Apparently we deliberately chose to exclude D because it's tall poppy syndrome.

It wasn't anything of the sort. It was an oversubscribed opportunity and those who wrote the best applications got the places. It wasn't the staff team's fault their child relied on their popularity and the fact they always get things.