Was I unreasonable to rig the school council election?

[Coffeeandteach]

I can tell you who will win when I look at the list of candidates. Every year it annoys me that some lovely, often overlooked, somewhere in the middle child will put themselves forward and read a thoughtful speech (written all on their own, at school) but never wins. They lose out to either the most popular or the most able child.

The child who got the most votes today had a speech that consisted of only, "I should win because I am the most popular."

I broke. I rigged it. The lovely, overlooked, somewhere in the middle child was announced the winner and she was delighted (and will do a great job).

YABU- You are the Putin of teachers. Shame on you!

YANBU- Sometimes you have to help the little guy

YANBU at all! Well played

@LolaSmiles, do you actually believe that popular child actually said "vote for me because I'm popular"?
Maybe they may not have said anything as thoughtful as other child/children, but I doubt the child actually said that. It's almost as comical as film like mean girls, I don't think children are that deluded in real life.

I don’t think it’s terrible to undermine a corrupt system

However if you just use your power ongoingly to rig it rather than improve it I can’t argue your corner

Well done. I am confident that that somewhere in the middle child will go on to be a world leader. You must swear never to tell her

Speaking as a teacher myself, I'd have absolutely done the same thing! No question!

WaltzfortheMars Given I've heard similar arguments I can believe it.

What I don't understand is how many people seem intent on arguing that the events couldn't possibly be how the OP says because it's preferable to argue that adults hate popular children/teachers are jealous of popular children/popular children are only popular because they're lovely.

Personally I think OP's school should have a better system to ensure the candidates who go for election are either anonymous or there's a teacher vetting so those going to class vote have actually shown an interest.

Popular kids in school is a funny topic on Mumsnet because there's two vocal groups who refuse to consider there's lots of grey areas.
Group 1 (either parents of popular children or were in the popular group themselves): will argue that the sun shines our the backsides of popular children, they're all obviously so unbelievably nice and nicer than every other child. Anyone who questions the dominance of the popular children must obviously be super duper jealous of the popular children and can't handle their sheer brilliance. They may also complain that there's a conspiracy against popular children any time the popular children don't come first.

Group 2: Will argue that any outcome that the popular children often get more opportunities than is fair to other children, but also have a huge chip on their shoulder where they think opportunities should be given to anyone, regardless of the child's talents. They can regularly be found complaining at school play time that their child who mumbles or can't sing in tune wasn't given the main part.

Meanwhile most sensible people fall in the middle.

Thanks, Lola.
I do believe that the rigging of vote happened, since so many teachers said they also did. And I also believe that the OP did this, so as other teachers who said they did, from kindness of their heart, not because they hate certain children.
However, I still think it's wrong to do this, and like you and other teachers said, they should rather alter the system to be better one than cheating and ultimately betraying children's trust.

@LolaSmiles

Not sure why you responded as you did in the first part of your post. I outlined exactly what I meant by popular. Perhaps you didn't read it properly. It matched almost exactly your first category. The rest are irrelevant as a response to what I wrote. Because several posters seem to be arguing that teachers are jealous of popular children and popular children are popular because they're all lovely and kind.

My point is that not all popular children fall into that category.

There's a lot of people focusing on the idea that in the OP's situation this wonderful talented popular child lost an opportunity because they are popular. In reality they didn't bother to give a speech about what they would do as class rep and instead told the kids to vote for them because they are popular.

As I said earlier, had the student done a good speech outlining their ideas and the OP removed them for being popular then I'd had said they were out of order.

Personally this is why I like the several stage approach that secondary schools I've worked in have, where for certain opportunities students have to apply for roles and then the good candidates can go for a vote, or manifestos are submitted and then students vote for manifestos. It goes some way to reducing school opportunities being decided by popularity contests.

A pp (teacher) said "but those roles should be filled because of talent". No hint of "letting other children shine".
That was me and maybe my school is unique because we have lots of talented students and offer a range of opportunities.

We have a great drama department who run a range of shows with a range of parts. They're not going to give the lead to a shy year 8 who mumbles, nor are they going to cave to pushy parents demanding their darling gets the lead because they always had the lead in primary. Strong actors get the bigger parts and different plays suit different students. This is reflected in the casting.

We don't give solos in national music competitions or places on the A team for country sport based on giving everyone a time to shine, but we do have music and sporting opportunities at a range of levels.

Funnily enough, the biggest issue we have at our school are a minority of pushy parents who think their child is some sort of natural star because they always got everything at primary. It doesn't seem to cross their mind that maybe in a year group of 200-250 children that there might be lots of other children with lots of talent so their child isn't a shoe in for everything.

No, the child wasn't super talented and that's not why I think he should have got the role. He / she should have got it, because the rules, as laid out to the class, wno all participated in a vote, in good faith, were that, whoever got the most votes would get it. He / she got the most votes, but teacher thought better of it and slyly stuck the votes for a child she decided shouldn't get it, straight in the bin. And she has received much adulation for it.

I totally agree with you about talented kids getting roles on A team sports and school plays btw. These roles should go to the most talented, because that is what is fair. The students all know they are competing at auditions and sports trials for a position. The rules are, that the best player cor the team / actor for the part will get the position. This is clear and honest.

What I was saying was, that if it was SO important to some teachers on here, that everyone has their time to shine. So much so, that they would tell bare faced lies to the kids they teach with no guilt whatsoever, because they just want little Rosie to have her moment in the sun, maybe they would sacrifice the world class sports team or west end show standard performance by allowing a less experienced actor or sports person have a go. And, as you say, decent drama departments will have a range of parts which suit a range of actors / students, not give the lead to the same girl and boy every year until they leave and then their younger siblings take over or whatever.

Sorry you seem to have had parents and their "little darlings" to contend with. As you say, these people are a tiny minority, so not even worth mentioning here tbh, unless it's a good excuse to have a vent. Nobody on here has said they think their kid should get given everything because they're wonderful. The only people who have expressed anything about wishing their child could have been given something, or joy that they have got something, are parents of children who rarely get anything, because of SEN or for other reasons. So quite understandable really.

And no, your school is probably far from unique.

@StFrancis

YABU because instead of recognising a potentially flawed system and changing the way it's done for the benefit of a wider section of students you've lied to all of them in order to get your own way in one single instance.

It's dishonest, self-important and doesn't serve anyone in the longer term.

If your students suspect or find out that you both overruled them and lied about it, you run a real risk of losing their respect and any right to expect them to behave with honesty and integrity towards you and each other in future.

Sorry, I don't think you've done a very grown-up thing, or delivered a good lesson for life, here.

Totally agree with all of this^^.

I would add Group 3 people who sneer at popular children and make snide remarks about them.

They are only children yet some people are determined to put them down.

Very often popular children earn their popularity by being nice, decent kids. That's how it was when I was at school. That's how it was when I was teaching and how it was when DSs were at school. The word "popular" is misused on MN.

@FlySheMust

I would add Group 3 people who sneer at popular children and make snide remarks about them.

They are only children yet some people are determined to put them down.

Very often popular children earn their popularity by being nice, decent kids. That's how it was when I was at school. That's how it was when I was teaching and how it was when DSs were at school. The word "popular" is misused on MN.

Unfortunately, not always, though. Popular children/teenagers can be popular because they're charismatic, good looking, wealthy (no matter the source of the income)and skilled at manipulating.

MN is full of people who have been victims of those people in late teens and adulthood. Unpopular kids can't groom bring shy girls and admiring boys into gang activity under the noses of teachers and parents.

A quick look at MN will show the 'nobody will believe me, he's loved by my parents, a pillar of the community, they all think he's so put upon, everybody thinks I was a mad and deeply unpleasant child being horrible to my poor mother' stories - the people doing that don't suddenly acquire the ability to do this out of nowhere on their 18th birthday.

Being aware that a charming personality and a winning smile doesn't equate to inherent goodness, even in children/teenagers and being able to spot the difference is an important skill.

This has reminded me of stories my DH told me about his school days. Mixed race child starting school in the early 50s, only BAME child in the school let alone the class and he had teachers who were openly racist. If there were limited places for anything, school trip is one he spoke about, his name never got pulled out of the hat and he always felt that if it did get pulled out the teacher wouldn't say it was him anyway. One year he came top in the maths exams and on returning to school in September he found he was in the remedial group. I suppose it is hard to tell what happened from this distance.

BigBlondeBimbo
But in this situation giving another child a time to shine meant a more talented and appropriate person got the role.
I think the OP's school should have a different way of doing things to counter the inevitable popularity contest, but the way some posters are carrying on here is like the world is some awful conspiracy against the popular children. It's really not.

WaltzfortheMars
I believe it happened as the OP says it did. There's no reason for them to ask for advice or opinions on a fake version of what happened.
It's a bit sad how many people are determined to turn what the OP has said into 'but you hate popular children, adults are jealous of popular children, the popular children are popular for a reason, they're so lovely and maybe you should value them more' whilst totally ignoring the fact that the OP has said that the speech given by this student was 'vote for me because I'm popular'.

I see why the OP did it. I think there were better options, but it's done now and the outcome is probably comparable to what would have happened had the school had a better system.

MitziK Careful, you can't go round saying that. Anything that remotely suggests popular children aren't always sugar and spice and all things nice only goes to show how jealous you are of their brilliance.

It's quite concerning how some posters can't/won't accept that just like some popular children are wonderful and kind and talented, others can be unpleasant and unkind.
I doubt they'd be commenting on how the office Queen Bee (or male equivalent) just obviously be exceptionally talented at their job and kind to all so nobody should question anything.

But in this situation giving another child a time to shine meant a more talented and appropriate person got the role.

But then, the whole notion of having a student vote is completely pointless. If you're just going to appoint who you (the op) thinks is the best child for the job anyway 🤷‍♀️. Don't bother having them all vote then.

I think the OP's school should have a different way of doing things to counter the inevitable popularity contest, but the way some posters are carrying on here is like the world is some awful conspiracy against the popular children. It's really not.

Yes, I agree that it isn't a conspiracy against popular kids, but there is definitely a heavy whiff of self importance about it. It has been decided (by the head or whoever), that the children elect one of their peers, but actually, no, we won't be doing that thank you very much, I to the bin go the votes I don't like. It isn't a hanging offence, but it's pretty shitty teaching, as it sends a false message. And it definitely doesn't deserve the seal clapping applause and adulation she has had on here.

I also agree that the system needs to be changed. Even if it becomes a role which is appointed by the teachers, (it already is tbh), that would be preferable to the sneak tactics which also teaches the children something which is not true; if someone gets a lot of votes, but they aren't objectively the right person for the job, the vote doesn't count. If someone is fairly elected they should get a chance to do the job. Then, if they truly don't care and fuck it up through lack of effort, you remove them from their post, after a number of warnings. That would have been a much better lesson in how politics actually works.

Lola, I do think there are lovely popular children, and horrible popular children. I still think OP exaggerated what they said. But that is not really the problem here imo. Op hardly knew children, still she used her power to change the outcome. And thinking she has done the right thing. There's no trust or respect for the children at all.

BigBlondeBimbo
Or have a stage before the speeches to vet candidates so nobody stands up without having something relevant to say.

It was an oversight to let anyone stand up and then straight to a class vote. I do think she was right to adjust the outcome, if the person who came second was the better candidate and did a speech that actually covered why they'd be a good rep. Hopefully in future the OP will be suggesting system changes to her senior leadership.

I'd do exactly the same
Good on you.

I voted YABU. Not because I want the popular kid who puts in no effort whatsoever to win, but because I think rigging any election process is wrong.

I also think school is a learning process. So if you vote for your mate just because, even though you know they’re a waste of space, you will not experience the consequences if someone steps in to correct the result. Sooner or later in life, sooner ATM, the consequences of electing incompetent fools will become reality.

Also OP, you rigged the election on your won choice of popularity. I know when I was at school I would have never put myself up for anything, not because I wasn’t inteligent, capable, but because I was popular with neither students or teachers. If you had dislike the plucky underdog you wouldn’t have rigged the election, so in effect you have just done the same thing as the students, all be it for no doubt more adult and considered reasons, but you only did it because you liked the student you rigged it in favour of.

Sorry, posted too soon.

OP, would you have rigged the election if the underdog student had been perfectly capable, but a cocky little shit you don’t like?

Rather than rigging the vote, wouldn't it be better on all counts to have a better system than one where the pupils alone vote? Put your energy into creating an election system that promotes the best person rather than just the most popular. So like pp said, they need to write or present to a panel of teachers/governors/pupils/parents etc.

It's so sweet you gave this a second thought.
We all rig it.

Rigging elections is not right, regardless of how worthy the candidate is.

Better that kids learn the harsh realities of democracy.

Have you watched 'Election'?! This won't end well....

The other issue is that the child the teacher appoints may not be the best person for the job. There may be someone better. Or another child that is overlooked because they aren’t a child the teacher likes/takes notice of. Teachers are more than capable of having their own blind spots/preconceptions/biases.