To expect my parents not always to excuse my brother's children's rough play?

[PastaForLunchAgain]

NC because possibly identifying.

My brother and his wife have three children; we have one DD who's three, the same age as their youngest. We usually see them either at my parents' house (we live far apart and my parents live roughly in the middle), or at a big family meet-up.

The problem is whenever we see them, DD ends up getting hurt. Incidents include her older cousin (aged 5 at the time) hitting her in the face because he was angry with his dad, two of her cousins jumping on top of her and thumping her while she cried (for absolutely no reason, and they seemed to think it was completely normal and were bemused when I pulled them away), and her big cousin (aged 8) repeatedly kicking her.

My DP gets really stressed by it and we both feel as if we spend a lot of time trying to stop DD from getting hurt, and my brother and his wife seem totally oblivious to it being a problem. When we've mentioned it, we get rolling eyes and they imply they think we are pampering DD. SIL has said that she's had negative comments from both school and nursery about their behaviour there, but she seems to mention it in the hope we'll all pipe up to reassure her the children are fine.

Now, I know my nephew goes through periods of refusing to speak to anyone, and that he only has one lad he likes to play with at school, who is in a different form from him. He very often seems to get expected to share everything with both of his sisters, and gets a bit taken for granted. So he's not very happy. I know my parents are a bit worried about him.

Whenever the subject comes up (or even if it hasn't!) my parents insist on telling us that we should realise they've grown up and changed so much since the last visit, or that they're such lovely, kind, gentle children. DD sees much more of her grandparents than her cousins, so every time they talk about her cousins, she gets so excited and talks about how much she wants to see them ... and every time we see them, she gets hurt.

AIBU to think my parents should not automatically excuse my brother's children here?

My almost 3 DS is fond of what might be termed "rough play"... Horsing around, playing chase, jostling other children, piling on top of each other. There's often collisions when he's not looking where he's going and occasionally he takes it too far because he doesn't realise the other child isn't enjoying it as much as he is (which we deal with appropriately). But, having been used to a "boisterous boy", I'd be absolutely shocked if he displayed the level of deliberate violence you've described, especially towards a smaller child. Also repeated hitting would get him taken straight home. Your DD may not be used to the jostling and pushing that will go on between three siblings and may find it alarming, but what you've described is not something she should have to put up with.

When you say something to them you need to emphasis the difference between accidental rough play and deliberate hitting and pushing.

I wouldn't hold back from comparing the complaints at nursery to your situation too and how they will be unhappy and unable to make friends at school for the same reason. "Nobody wants to be friends with children when they are likely to get hurt" You need to spell it out for them because they really aren't seeing the connection. Tell them you are being cruel to be kind as sil has already told you that they are having problems at nursery and school.

That’s not rough play, that’s pure nastiness. Your poor child getting bullied while all the adults sit back and do nothing

No you're not being PFB. Of course that's not normal or something you should accept. No wonder they are being commented on by teachers at school.

I agree it sounds quite unpleasant, but I have noticed that parents who have one daughter often have no idea about what it's like with boys and multiple siblings. There's mum's at my dcs school who have one girl and look at the boys running round the playground in absolute horror.

It doesn't sound like rough play. To me, someone getting hurt during rough play is when everyone wants to join in, and everyone is having fun until someone accidentally gets hurt . . . and if it's rough play then people getting genuinely hurt should be relatively rare and it shouldn't be the same person each time. If the one little person is always getting hurt, and isn't choosing to join in the games but getting dragged in, then it's not rough play, it's picking on the smallest child. I have also had this issue in the past, although without the grandparent element. I watched like a hawk and swooped in immediately things got out of hand. I then firmly but calmly narrated what had happened to all present 'x, you kicked y really hard. You hurt them. They aren't having fun. Say sorry and be more gentle'. And then the next time I'd say 'x, you pushed y over, this is the SECOND time you've made them cry this afternoon.' I would make sure all the adults were also aware and then I'd leave if there was another incident saying something like 'x has been pushed over and hit three times ad has been crying, it's too much for her, I'm taking her home'. After a few social occasions like that the parents of the rough child would be watching closely and being much more firm on x. As regards your parents I would make sure they are aware of the 'count' of incidents, and remind them 'well, you say they're gentle, but I had to remove x last time because she has been bitten once, then hit, then had her hair pulled . . . . she was frightened and upset, do you think that's ok?'. Sorry, it's very hard with family dynamics.

I don't care about gender or multiple siblings. There is no excusing for rocking on up to a younger child and thumping her one because you're annoyed with someone else.

I won't take that in my children, and I won't take that being inflicted on my children.

It's not just unpleasant, it's unacceptable, and completely inexcusable.

Ditto two kids ganging up on another and jumping on top of her while she cries.

Ditto repeatedly booting her.

No wonder no-one wants to play with these kids. I'm surprised they're not on last warnings at their schools - they sound absolutely feral.

And that's an absolute indictment on their parents, they're not even being dragged up, let alone brought up. It's a terrible shame for the kids when their parents either cannot, or will not, effectively parent their children, just seek to make excuses for them and feel like they're being victimised when other people are disinclined to allow their children to be actual victims of their misbehaviour.

You can't change any of them. You've tried explaining your view & none of them agree. You'll probably have to avoid them for 10 years or so.

@GameSetMatch

I’m sure it’s six of one half a dozen of the other, my brother and his wife accuse my boys of being ‘rough’ but they don’t see all the things their ‘little darling’ does. Kids like to test the boundaries, why don’t you tell the children to play nicer with your DD?

This is exactly the kind of comment you’d expect from parents like the OP’s brother and SIL.

My DH is like this about the DSC far too often. They are very badly behaved (he described them as ‘feral’ himself) but he just can’t be bothered/doesn’t want to be the bad guy by actually parenting them when they’re awful to each other. And they’re pretty consistently horrible to each other. He just says ‘oh it’s sibling rivalry’ as if it’s totally fine that they’re being deliberately nasty to each other, and it’s not his job as their parent to step in and do something about it.

At this point, I’ve just told him that if it doesn’t improve (it won’t; as far as I can tell their behaviour just deteriorates over time) then I’ll just keep DS3 away from them entirely. I’m not unrealistic, but a nearly 7 year old shouldn’t be pushing her 3 year old brother over and then trying to get him into trouble for it. Nor should the 3 year old be biting people and screaming every time he doesn’t get his own way. If they can’t be nice, they won’t be playing with DS3.

My children have always been nice to each other. My DSes are always nice to the DSC. In fact, I have to step in regularly to help DS (11) because he feels like he can’t stop them doing things or tell them to leave him/his stuff alone. He knows he’ll get into trouble if he is anything other than very nice to younger children, so he feels like he can’t just push the 6 year old away as she climbs on him etc.

@PastaForLunchAgain I would limit the visits and just not allow you DD to play with her cousins while you’re there. Take lots of nice things for her to do and supervise her like a hawk (your DP can do this too).

I hate the idea that it's inevitable that children deliberately hurt each other as siblings. I have three children and that has never been acceptable in this house. I'm not saying they have never hurt each other but I can count on one hand the number of times it has happened and my eldest is nearly 18 now. There were consequences and it was made clear it wasn't acceptable. It's only inevitable if you let it be. They also have a lot of older cousins who I've never known hurt each other or my children when in their company.

Ultimately you cannot parent these children. I think it's very unlikely that anything you do will change their behaviour without the full support of their parents and all the adults in the situation. Your job as a parent is to keep your child safe, so it may just be if you can't get them on board, the only thing you can do is keep her away from the children who you know will hurt her. It's not OK for your DD to be repeatedly put in that position.

Given you have plans to see them again I would issue an ultimatum, that if your DD gets deliberately hurt by them again then that's the last time she will see them until they can be trusted not to hurt her. If your family care about seeing you then the violence needs to stop. That's in their control, not yours.

@formerbabe

I agree it sounds quite unpleasant, but I have noticed that parents who have one daughter often have no idea about what it's like with boys and multiple siblings. There's mum's at my dcs school who have one girl and look at the boys running round the playground in absolute horror.

Absolute rubbish. I have two boys and they might be lively and energetic but they absolutely do not deliberately hurt other children! I really, truly hate it it when people put poor behaviour down to boys being boys. OP has already said that two of the offending children, in this case, are girls anyway.

@Norabird. Completely agree...I am prepared to turn a blind eye to overenthusiasm and boisterous play so long as everyone is having fun, even though it occasionally ends in tears. But pushing, hitting, biting and behaviour calculated to hurt or upset others is as unacceptable in boys as it is in girls.

I dont think anyone has said that it's ok for children to deliberately hurt each other have they? Only that it is usual for accidental hurt to happen a group of young children playing together for an extended period. And that in the early part of the thread when posters were trying to tease out what was happening.

It does sound like you need to step in. I’d be clearer to my parents too- maybe you called that gentle mum although I’m pretty sure you didnt encourage brother to wallop me and then tell him what a good boy he is, but we don’t parent like that. I don’t parent like that, my daughter deserves to play without someone coming along and hitting her because they can, cousin or anyone else. that is a horrible lesson you seem to think she should learn.
Matter of fact tone helps a lot.

There is a child (only child, girl - so opposite of the dynamics being excused in earlier posts) in my DDs class who screams at people, tantrums, lashes out and hits - she's 9. People are more accommodating as they feel sorry for her having no friends, but it's completely chicken and egg - she has no friends because of how she behaves.

What works when I have her over is to take more control of the play. Set them tasks and games, be in charge a little bit more. So if I sent them off to collect lots of different leaves, I would praise her for every minor bit of nice-ness. If they are painting, I encourage her to share and say things like "that was kind." She responds really well to this and has basically never been taught how to play nicely, so I go back a few steps and show her. When she plays with my younger child, I tell her what to do but it seems like she's in charge (e.g. draw him a cat to colour in, he'd love that...)

Without spelling it out to my DD, she has said she's happy to see her if we are doing something, but not if they are just left to play. So the difference in her behaviour is obvious.

So basically, prepare for the visits and set the rules yourself - it will pay dividends in the longer run. Good luck

She is getting to the point where she'll ask me things like 'why did he do that' or 'why is she angry with me' and she was gutted when my dad told all four of them they were 'all' being naughty because one of them had punched her.

That is such a wrong message. Please, please step in now. Otherwise, there is a very real risk she will see this as the natural way people communicate, and start doing it too. You also don't need your DD to become a battered wife later on.