To expect my parents not always to excuse my brother's children's rough play?

[PastaForLunchAgain]

NC because possibly identifying.

My brother and his wife have three children; we have one DD who's three, the same age as their youngest. We usually see them either at my parents' house (we live far apart and my parents live roughly in the middle), or at a big family meet-up.

The problem is whenever we see them, DD ends up getting hurt. Incidents include her older cousin (aged 5 at the time) hitting her in the face because he was angry with his dad, two of her cousins jumping on top of her and thumping her while she cried (for absolutely no reason, and they seemed to think it was completely normal and were bemused when I pulled them away), and her big cousin (aged 8) repeatedly kicking her.

My DP gets really stressed by it and we both feel as if we spend a lot of time trying to stop DD from getting hurt, and my brother and his wife seem totally oblivious to it being a problem. When we've mentioned it, we get rolling eyes and they imply they think we are pampering DD. SIL has said that she's had negative comments from both school and nursery about their behaviour there, but she seems to mention it in the hope we'll all pipe up to reassure her the children are fine.

Now, I know my nephew goes through periods of refusing to speak to anyone, and that he only has one lad he likes to play with at school, who is in a different form from him. He very often seems to get expected to share everything with both of his sisters, and gets a bit taken for granted. So he's not very happy. I know my parents are a bit worried about him.

Whenever the subject comes up (or even if it hasn't!) my parents insist on telling us that we should realise they've grown up and changed so much since the last visit, or that they're such lovely, kind, gentle children. DD sees much more of her grandparents than her cousins, so every time they talk about her cousins, she gets so excited and talks about how much she wants to see them ... and every time we see them, she gets hurt.

AIBU to think my parents should not automatically excuse my brother's children here?

You need to shadow your daughter. At 3 you just need to watch like a hawk and intervene constantly. It isn't a nice relaxing visit but keep it short. You or your dP need to watch constantly. If other people mention it, at that you know that often the cousins behave aggressively towards df and you'd like to go a visit where she doesn't get injured.
NB behave aggressively not are aggressive. The second one could land you in the shit!

@GrumpyHoonMain

It’s not normal for an 8 yo and a 5 yo to be picking on a 3 yo this way. If you have tried everything then the only thing you can do is have a huge go at your DB in front of everyone and call it out big time (in front of his kids so they know exactly what problems their behaviour can cause).

Agreed that it’s not normal. I have three, youngest is currently 8 and even if I can’t remember what they are like they were like when they 5 and 3, I can say there is no way the 8 yr old would be allowed to hit a three ur old. Or would do it actually. He’s not particularly gentle either.

SIL has said that she's had negative comments from both school and nursery about their behaviour there, but she seems to mention it in the hope we'll all pipe up to reassure her the children are fine.

You're not wrong and you're not the only ones who've pointed out the behaviour. Your brother and sil are in denial and/or shit parents who aren't doing their jobs properly.

Start telling their children off if they're hurting your smaller, younger child. If they get offended or act outraged, tell them to step up and do their job, then.

Rough play or not, your DD is only little and shouldn't be getting battered everytime she sees them. Some kids are just rough.

Make a written note of what has happened to her and when.

Tell the GPs that you will visit with your DD when they are not there. If the family ask why, just tell them. Your DD can see them again once she's big enough too defend herself.

Poor little mite.

A friend’s son hit and hurt my daughter a few times when we met. I was telling another friend about it saying I’d have to stop seeing friend 1 and she said ‘yes it’s your job as her intent to protect her so you will have to.’ That really crystallised things for me ever since. It is my job to protect her and it’s your job to protect your daughter regardless of whether it pisses your brother or mum off.

parent

I’m sure it’s six of one half a dozen of the other, my brother and his wife accuse my boys of being ‘rough’ but they don’t see all the things their ‘little darling’ does. Kids like to test the boundaries, why don’t you tell the children to play nicer with your DD?

Gosh. This is an awful situation. There are so many shitty men out there who were simply never told that some behaviour is unacceptable, and now schools are so soft they never do get told.

This is nasty, deliberate and absolutely not ok. You need to be ready to step in with a very firm No! You do not hit other people! Especially not young children! Say you are sorry! Until he gets it. No one is standing up for her apart from you. And your parents refusing to see it shows me where it comes from originally.

I know what you're saying OP that you don't want to make it an issue between your family. But I think you have to, because no one else is. You don't need to make a big song or dance about it, just don't go for a while. If your DP ask why, explain its because of the other's behaviour.

It's not really the same, but I've decided to reduce contact with my family. There are a lot of little niggling things I've noticed with my parents and DSIS since spending more time with then after lockdown. Nothing malicious, but it is overbearing anxiety that is starting to have an impact on my DC behaviour. I'm not making any big announcement, we will just be busy for the next few weekends I think.

OP can you take a little friend of your DD along next time? I feel for the poor wee thing on her own with these boys.

Or buy one of those dog breeds that are incredibly protective of the family, especially it's littlest members. A Belgian shepherd maybe?? It will soon sort the little thugs out.

Erm ... it's one boy, my nephew, and two girls. I really don't think this is a gender issue! And no, I'm not dragging someone else's child over 100 miles to be a buffer zone.

Thanks everyone for comments - it was really reassuring and helpful.

Awful situation OP,

I can't imagine how it has gone on so long.

This behaviour is NOT normal.

A little rough play where children are asked to go easy and be gentle, but the type of behaviour you write of is just dreadful.

Unfortunately your choices are...
Go for a final visit, first time she's hurt, leave and on that basis say we will leave meet ups until your child can be treated kindly.

Tell your parents you will not visit with your brother again until things are dealt with.

Tell your brother its best ye don't meet up.again with the children as it's too upsetting seeing your daughter being hurt by children so much bigger.

Behaviour like that will hardly correct itself.

I doubt this will be resolved any time soon without huge intervention.

Your priority must be to keep your child safe.

Your father calling her naughty collectively after she had been hurt would give the rage.

So fxxking lazy.

Your child is clearly not the priority during the family visit.

She really needs you to step up and protect her.

I didn't think it was a gender issue! Why would you even think that? I just thought they were boys.. and knew one was. It's just the one that's a problem I think though?

It's not a buffer zone it's giving her someone to play with, so she's not having to play with kids a lot bigger &/or rougher. It's quite common to allow a friend to go when the child is a much different age to others, 8 year olds don't always want to play with 3 year olds for long,

Anyway this isn't fair on your DD. 5 is old enough to know you don't just walk up to someone and hit them. I'm amazed his parents aren't more concerned.

Thanks @billy1966.

@vodka, I assumed you thought it was a gender issue because you thought it was all boys/it was the one boy who was the problem! I didn't mean to offend you, just to be very clear that it isn't a gender issue: there are two girls and a boy, and it definitely isn't the issue that only the boy is a problem.

I get where you're coming from with the suggestion about a friend, but realistically, 100 miles is a very, very long way to take another person's child, aged 3, and in theory there is no reason my DD shouldn't be able to play with her 3 year old cousin, even if the older ones are playing games that don't suit her. I would expect that to happen and certainly wouldn't expect an older child always to include her/want to play with her.

Don't worry about cousins and being an only. Our DD is an only child too, and I would have liked her to be friends with her cousins, but my brother brought up his with no boundaries for about five years, and it was just too stressful for everyone. More specifically me and DH.

There's no point having family if they're making her - and you - unhappy. It's not a great message about what you should put up with from other people.

FWIW, what I think might be happening is that the older two are used to being able to boss around the 3 year old and are upset that their youngest sibling is being 'taken away from them'. But they have to learn to get used to situations like that, and if their parents won't discipline them, then you have to step away.

You sound like you have a sensible view on the whole situation to me PastaForLunchAgain . The idea of taking someone else's child into that situation because they're to used as a buffer is quite hair raising. How on earth could you ask their parents when you know they probably would get hurt?

Unfortunately by the sounds of it, you're probably best refusing all invites when your brother will be there. It's not fair on your DD to be treated like that and it doesn't sound like your brother and SIL are going to parent them properly with excuses being made constantly.

Oh I didn't realise she had a 3 year old cousin! And 100 miles away too far to take a little friend. I just thought a young ally might be good. They can say things we adults can't.. like 'don't hit my friend!' Very very loudly.

Somehow you have to be able to step in and stop this hitty boy though or it's not fair on your daughter. Ok he's only 5 but that's not too young to learn that hitting smaller girls is not allowed. She shouldn't have to grow up with that and if their parents want to be hands off parents, fine. You might not. So they can be hands off when he is being told off too. I wouldn't even bother discussing it with your own parents either.

Just step in super nanny style, deliver your lines and then sit down like nothing has happened. Let them compensate Alford your bad behaviour for a change. Sounds like the sons son is getting preferential treatment.

You need a carrot as well as a stick!
Don't comment on quality of behaviour- bad, good, naughty- just on actions.
Don't waste words. ('Oh dear sammy, that's not very nice is it?')

"No hitting"
"Stop"
"Kind hands"
"Too rough"

Break it up into short chunks of time- so a brief play when you arrive, then go on a little walk, then another play, then sit and read a story, then into the kitchen for a snack and so on.

Have some fun activities lined up- sticker book, magnet toy or something.
"Ok you lot, go and have a play before we do this sticker book. But... play gently! If anyone gets hurt then I won't get the stickers out."

"Well done, you played so gently together! Let's have some popcorn/jelly beans!"

Kids catch on pretty quick if you can be really straightforward and clear. Try not to get emotional about it, because it heightens the tension and makes them more likely to lash out.

@artisanparsnips, thanks, that's really reassuring. I think probably I do worry too much about the 'only child' thing.

@FlaviaAlbiaWantsLangClegBack - yes, I think I am going to end up refusing mostly. I'm going to give it another go (because there's a visit in the plan), but I'm going to speak very plainly and then if there's no decent response I'll have to say we can't keep doing this.

@Vodkacranberryplease, yep, I explained in my OP. And honestly, I know you said it's not about gender but it's really not about one 'hitty boy'! His older cousin and the three year old can be just as bad; the only reason I said more about the boy is that he's not doing very well at the moment and my parents seem to think that must excuse all of them.

Kids catch on pretty quick if you can be really straightforward and clear. Try not to get emotional about it, because it heightens the tension and makes them more likely to lash out.

No, doesn't work. Sorry. It would be lovely if it did.

They don't see me as having the slightest authority to tell them off/withhold things, and if I try to involve them in an activity on the condition they don't get rough, they simply start hitting out/taking it out on DD because I've stopped them doing something. Or they dominate the activity and shove DD out - I've tried to read a book to the two three year olds multiple times, and found either that the other three year old won't tolerate my DD being able to see the book, or the older ones come and push the little ones off my lap so they can have the story to themselves.

It's partly that they're such different ages - my parents try to get them toys they can all play with but it's tricky, and if one child has something different from the others, there's usually a row because they all want it.

@PastaForLunchAgain I did, too, when DD was the same age, I think it's entirely natural. But from the age of 4 or 5, she formed very close friendships and has always had them since, and has sleepovers and so on.

The other thing that she has - and I remember having as a child too - is close friendships with the children of my friends. One friend in particular we go and stay with, and she has 5 children and so DD got the whole manic huge family thing. She loved it, for 36 hours, and then was very relieved to come home.

Also, have just read your last update, and they sound not just annoying but grim. I'd really step away for a while.

"Well done, you played so gently together! Let's have some popcorn/jelly beans!"

Off topic: No to popcorn. 3 is too young. It is virtually impossible to dislodge should it get stuck in a child's small throat. Look it up.

That's really reassuring and helpful. Yes, she's just beginning to get to the stage of having 'friends' as opposed to 'other children who play alongside me' (if you know what I mean). So hopefully that will just naturally fill any gaps I'm worried about.

OP I was/am an only child with 3 cousins who lived at a distance. Although I really didn't have many friends, I can still remember bi-annual meetups with the cousins and not being happy with them. They weren't rough - they just did things very differently to us. I focused on building up good friendships.

We saw each other at weddings and funerals over the years, but happily, when we all met up when we were in our forties, we suddenly found that we got on brilliantly! I love them lots now.

They will always be her cousins, but no need to force a relationship.

Go and see your mum and show her this thread. You are being very reasonable, OP, and you clearly want to continue going there and for your DD to see her cousins. Show your parents what others think.