To expect my parents not always to excuse my brother's children's rough play?

[PastaForLunchAgain]

NC because possibly identifying.

My brother and his wife have three children; we have one DD who's three, the same age as their youngest. We usually see them either at my parents' house (we live far apart and my parents live roughly in the middle), or at a big family meet-up.

The problem is whenever we see them, DD ends up getting hurt. Incidents include her older cousin (aged 5 at the time) hitting her in the face because he was angry with his dad, two of her cousins jumping on top of her and thumping her while she cried (for absolutely no reason, and they seemed to think it was completely normal and were bemused when I pulled them away), and her big cousin (aged 8) repeatedly kicking her.

My DP gets really stressed by it and we both feel as if we spend a lot of time trying to stop DD from getting hurt, and my brother and his wife seem totally oblivious to it being a problem. When we've mentioned it, we get rolling eyes and they imply they think we are pampering DD. SIL has said that she's had negative comments from both school and nursery about their behaviour there, but she seems to mention it in the hope we'll all pipe up to reassure her the children are fine.

Now, I know my nephew goes through periods of refusing to speak to anyone, and that he only has one lad he likes to play with at school, who is in a different form from him. He very often seems to get expected to share everything with both of his sisters, and gets a bit taken for granted. So he's not very happy. I know my parents are a bit worried about him.

Whenever the subject comes up (or even if it hasn't!) my parents insist on telling us that we should realise they've grown up and changed so much since the last visit, or that they're such lovely, kind, gentle children. DD sees much more of her grandparents than her cousins, so every time they talk about her cousins, she gets so excited and talks about how much she wants to see them ... and every time we see them, she gets hurt.

AIBU to think my parents should not automatically excuse my brother's children here?

Sorry, read your update.

I think you either have to stop going over or the moment it happens, just leave since they aren’t taking it seriously. Every time your daughter gets hurt due to intentional behaviour, leave.

You also don’t want your daughter thinking such behaviour is normal, especially coming from boys.

This is a really good point, thank you.

I'd be concerned, because 5 and 8-year-olds are generally bigger than 3-year-olds, and like playing differently. I think you need to step in every time until they stop. If this makes everyone else uncomfortable, that's too bad. Your DD needs to know you'll keep her safe. And she definitely doesn't need to learn that her position in the family (or life) is as someone else's punching bag.

Stop discussing this with your Parents, they don't give a shit.

Your Child your choice, but personally I wouldn't have them near her cousins until they are more mature, and not lashing out at her in frustration, and I certainly wouldn't be leaving her, with my Parents, who see fuck all wrong in this hammering she takes in their company, but that's just me.

YANBU the children won't learn where the boundaries of rough play are if they are never reinforced and are always validated

DS1 can lash out when his emotions are overwhelmed. It's never been acceptable and was one of the catalogue of reasons why we went through a referral and diagnosis of ASD. Even with a diagnosis, it might explain why he lashes out, but it's still not an excuse and his behaviour is addressed appropriately to his needs and the wider situation.

Whatever the underlying cause of such behaviour, condoning it does the child no favours and is deeply unfair on the other children affected.

DH and I have some experience of this. My first point is to ignore your parents and take them out of the equation - they are trying to minimise to reduce tension and while that's annoying, it's understandable. And ultimately, irrelevant because the issue is your brother and SIL and their children.

We had this quite a lot with SIL's son. He would scream in DD's face, hit her etc. Often in his case, I think he genuinely was just trying to get her attention or wanted to communicate and couldn't (we felt that his communication skills were slower to develop than other children, but not worryingly so - just enough to make things carry on longer than they should.)

SIL and BIL were absolutely USELESS at dealing with it. At best they'd get down and try to talk to him about why it wasn't nice to hit DD. He clearly didn't understand a word (and frankly, by then we'd worked out that he actually thought shouting was how you communicated as his parents were ALWAYS shouting at him - but that's another conversation).

So we:

1. Made some effort to reduce contact. Not massively, but just allowed DD not to have to see him as often.
2. When we were around them, we kept a close eye on things. If we saw him starting to be violent or aggressive towards her we'd step in. Sometimes we'd tell him no, very firmly. But we always would just step in and take her away. She'd be allowed to sit on the couch with her iPad - and we would insist that Dnephew leave her alone. SIL or BIL would sometimes get upset about this and start bleating, "he just loves her and wants to play with her" and we'd just calmly say that she was upset and didn't like being shouted at/hit so we would let her be alone if that's what she needed.

Nursery also had concerns about his behaviour which slowly slowly SIL started to pay attention to. But to be honest, I think a big part of things getting better was because he learnt to communicate better and his nursery had a zero tolerance approach to his behaviour. His parents certainly did not.

It doesn't sound like things will improve with your Brother and SIL, but feel free to go ahead and protect your DD however you see fit.

Another thing, is watch them like a hawk, and really notice and effusively praise them when they play nicely, when they share a toy, or use 'gentle hands'. Encourage the good. (It might give your brother and his wife a few flipping clues, too.)

@mbosnz

Another thing, is watch them like a hawk, and really notice and effusively praise them when they play nicely, when they share a toy, or use 'gentle hands'. Encourage the good. (It might give your brother and his wife a few flipping clues, too.)

Oh yes, we did this too. But I'm not sure how effective it was.... But it felt like we were at least trying.

@spaceOP, that's really helpful, thank you.

I do see why everyone is saying I shouldn't get hung up on what my parents do as it's really DB and SIL's issue. It is. I guess part of it is just feeling so frustrated that they seem not to realise it could upset her. She has a much closer relationship with my parents than her cousins, and I am worried that relationship will suffer if my parents act like this. I am quite angry with them TBH. But, probably it's not very easy being in their shoes either.

[quote PastaForLunchAgain]@spaceOP, that's really helpful, thank you.

I do see why everyone is saying I shouldn't get hung up on what my parents do as it's really DB and SIL's issue. It is. I guess part of it is just feeling so frustrated that they seem not to realise it could upset her. She has a much closer relationship with my parents than her cousins, and I am worried that relationship will suffer if my parents act like this. I am quite angry with them TBH. But, probably it's not very easy being in their shoes either.[/quote]
I totally understand where you're coming from here. Really. But if you make it their problem, you're losing the opportunity to protect your DD AND risking a big fall out with them. Have you ever tried talking to them privately about it? MIL in public is very much like your parents, but privately, she'll admit that nephew's behaviour leaves a lot to be desired. She never says anything too strong, but it's clear nonetheless.

When they start bleating on about how nice their children are explain thst they arnt being nice to your child and it isn't playing when someone gets hurt

As for your parents a simple yes I totally understand you dont care about my daughter getting hurt but I do

I take your point, @SpaceOP. I have tried talking to my parents in private and one on one. My dad just literally doesn't see it (but he was never any sort of hands-on parent) and my mum will very occasionally admit they were rough but will usually deflect with something like 'well, you were naughty sometimes too'.

It frustrates me because I don't think 'naughty' covers it. All children can be naughty. I wouldn't be bothered (and wouldn't think it was my business) if they were that. What bothers me is that the level of violence seems to me quite a bit beyond 'naughtiness' and the way it happens isn't what I'd see as 'bad behaviour'. If they'd all got a bit cross with each other and one of the cousins had lost their temper with DD, or if they'd all been playing a game that got out of hand, I'd understand. But it's never seemed to be like that - DD can be completely minding her own business and doing something else when it happens.

I think you need to be sharper with the children. A firm “pack it in” should be enough, if it’s not, then remove your daughter and ask your brother if he is ever going to parent his child or if you just have to remove her from their company as they seem hell-bent on hurting her? If they say that they’re nice kids they don’t mean it etc, then you say maybe they should prove it my acting nicely? She’s a toddler!

I would be arranging to visit your parents when they aren’t there unless the parents step up.

This is going to sound odd but it depends how your DD feels about it!

I ask because I had a similar situation growing up - I was in your DD's position and had 3 much rougher cousins (and I certainly don't remember either set of parents stepping in - but that was the 80s ). Actually I loved it, it made an exciting change from my naice home friends. But if it is going far enough to upset your DD then you are not unreasonable to step in.

If the parents never react or worse pull you up for it, you need to distance from them. Seeing siblings/cousins is not compulsory.

Oh bloody hell cross posted!

I think I would be asking what my behaviour as a child has to do with what is happening now? Is she saying she allowed your brother to hurt you as it was easier than disciplining him? Is she saying that because she failed to discipline your bad behaviour that your daughter has to suffer? I really don’t understand her line of thinking.

@christmastreewithhairyfairy - DD loves the idea of her cousins, which is why I'd like it to work. When my parents talk about them, she gets really excited. She talks about them and wants to make friends. But, every time we go, she gets hurt and it does upset her. She is getting to the point where she'll ask me things like 'why did he do that' or 'why is she angry with me' and she was gutted when my dad told all four of them they were 'all' being naughty because one of them had punched her.

This it the thing. It's not that she's secretly enjoying rough and tumble; my parents would love to think so.

@MsEllany - no, I think my mum means 'it's only ordinary naughtiness just like you were naughty as a child'. As in, she's saying they aren't doing anything very bad.

I grew up in a rough and ready house in the 80s and even my parents (who smacked us) were alert to, and protected us from, what were called "hitty kids". Kids (cousins, neighbours etc) who were violent. It's not "rough play", it's way beyond that and your daughter shouldn't be getting hurt.

When my DC have been on the receiving end of getting thumped - and the parents do nothing - I just pick my DC up and say "babykale doesn't like that so we're going to play somewhere else" or some such to make it clear there is a direct correlation between the action (the violence) and the consequence (victim being moved away and ideally given a "treat" like some one on one attention, screen time, small sweetie etc).

I would not put up with this behaviour and neither would my DH. I would most likely avoid them whenever possible, but if I had to have my dc around them I would be watching very closely and I would remove my DC immediately if they were attacked.
Also, I would be furious if my dad (or anyone) accused my DC of being naughty after just being punched. If he does that again you must stand up to him and tell him in front of your DD how unreasonable that is.

I wouldn’t go anywhere near the term naughty. I don’t think it helps. I would just say firmly that you are keeping her away from them because they don’t know how to behave around a three year old. That leaves the possibility open of their being taught and leaves the door open to them getting together again when she is a little older.

A 3 year old is unlikely to ‘love the idea of’ cousins they see only rarely if they’re encouraged to do so by parents, grandparents or others.

Sounds like you’re not close to your brother and his wife? Eg you mainly see them at your parents and not one of your homes. If that relationship isn’t close, then it’s natural that DD won’t spend much time with her cousins.

It is appalling to read that this physical violence towards your little one is allowed to continue in full sight of adults.
You are quite right to be very upset and frustrated by the adult reaction (or lack of reaction) but you need to be much stronger now and shock them into realising the seriousness of this situation.
To hit or kick or pile on top of another child in any circumstances is totally unacceptable. There is never an excuse. You must not let it happen again. No child deserves that.
The fact that the violent acts towards your daughter aren’t happening during play necessarily, but are handed out without provocation or thought is extremely disturbing.....A slap here, a kick there without any acknowledgment of how wrong it is ...or consequence is weak beyond understanding.
Your parents have normalised this and Inexplicably, they excuse it as childhood play. Like your Bil and Sil, they aren’t prepared to tackle it or parent the cousins. They are afraid of being accused of showing favouritism. And they feel sad for their grandson. It’s downward spiral which will only lead to further unhappiness unless it is checked.

Either you stop taking your dd to get beaten up or you get tough.
Sit them all down, adults included and lay the law down about exactly what is and what is not acceptable. Spell it out. Demonstrate the violent acts you have witnessed. Do it in an authoritative but firm way. Get their attention ....be passionate about how very wrong it is. And remember that it’s an act of kindness towards the cousins to discipline in this way way. Get the adults and cousins to agree the consequences for stepping over this new boundary. Explain that the adults are the protectors of the children and as such, must help them when they deviate from the normal path of acceptable behaviour. Ask them if they understand.
If the children don’t follow through with better behaviour and if the adults don’t follow through with very stern consequences, then they will know exactly why you had no alternative but to explain to your dd why she won’t be seeing her cousins until they can agree to stop deliberately hurting her. No further explanation will be necessary.
You must show your dd as well as the adults and cousins that you won’t tolerate the injustice of any child, especially her, being labelled naughty for being the victim of physical aggression.

Sounds like a mixture of things. With two or more at home they do get biffed a bit from time to time. Not excusing it but if it happens all the time at home then your brother probably is a bit blind to it. Also the age of the kids. When ours get together in bigger groups with friends, the younger ones (1-4 years) do push each other over or hit if cross. If you see them intentionally hitting your DC, honestly I would tell them off. Something like, no, we don't hit. You need to say sorry now. Said firmly. It's not like it's a school friend, it's your nieces and nephews. Also what time of day do you see each other? Morning visits might be better when everyone is generally a bit calmer and able to focus.

no one is telling them this really isn't ok.

Could you?

It’s not normal for an 8 yo and a 5 yo to be picking on a 3 yo this way. If you have tried everything then the only thing you can do is have a huge go at your DB in front of everyone and call it out big time (in front of his kids so they know exactly what problems their behaviour can cause).

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel - yes, I think I am probably going to end up getting to that stage. I can certainly keep her away/supervised during visits. And I think if the next (planned) visit doesn't go well, I'll do something like what you say, @LAMPS1, and sit down DB and SIL to talk about why we don't think visits are working.

@Dozer - is it unusual? I would have thought it was very normal. Her nursery is always talking about families, who's in our family, that sort of thing; she'd also love to see various other relatives she doesn't know (eg., my DP's grandmother, who isn't with us any more). It's the idea, not the reality, that she loves. But because she's an only, I do wish it could work out. And it's not that I don't want to like my own nephew and nieces! I do. I would like them to be happier children who didn't go around punching people.

@badg3r - as I say, I do tell them off. We can't really limit visits to mornings only, we live quite a long way apart. Probably not ideal, but there it is.

@ConquestEmpireHungerPlague - as I say, I do; no one else is.