In thinking delaying exams won’t help?

[NotDonna]

I’m posting to try to understand the issues better. Delaying exams seems futile. It won’t really address the inequalities in education. Wouldn’t CAGs be fairer? Are ranking, algorithms etc really necessary?

I’m not a teacher but used to work in HE many moons ago. On my course students were assessed by lecturers continuously. Essays and exam papers were internally moderated and then externally moderated. Im pretty sure there was no ranking or algorithms involved. I know Gove put an end to continuous assessment (foolish I think). But that would then provide ‘evidence’, wouldn’t it?

I’m trying to understand why this can’t happen with schools. Are the number of kids just too huge to moderate thoroughly? Take too long?
Would the ‘evidence’ be an issue leading to teachers constantly having to test, test, test. What was wrong with continuous assessment?
It’s difficult but I don’t see the solution being delayed exams. But again, maybe I’m missing something?
YABU - delaying exams is the best option
YANBU - delaying exams still won’t be fair

I just want them to make a decision. It's not fair that year 11 and 13 are going back and neither they nor their teachers know what is happening. The consultation seemed to reduce very little content for most of dd's GCSE's and until she gets back into school we have no idea how the practical subjects are going to work. If they are going to move the exams they need to make that announcement now. Although there is still likely to be disruption to this school year so moving them alone may not be enough.

@milveycrohn

There used to be additional course work for GCSEs. I think these were stopped, except for Art type courses maybe, or severely curtailed. The problem here, is that parents can give a lot of help, and some parents practically do the coursework, whereas, other parents for lots of reasons are unable to give the same sort of help. When my (now adult) DC did their A Levels, they were modular, which has now been stopped. However, the problem with this is that, if the student failed to get a good grade for the first module, they could retake that module, and all within the same A level grade. However, no one thought of lockdowns, and schools closed, with exams being abandoned. If the courswork and modular approach had continued, then there would be more to go on rather than just the teacher predictions. The problem with the predictions, is that no one knew how the student would actually perform on the day. I think the time does not really allow for the exams to be postponed, but if they did, then I would agree than postponment for just one month would be the best outcome, rather than 2 months.

The actual problem for Gove was that girls tended to do better than boys with that system. And we couldn't possibly have that.

I have a Y11.
His Academy school sent home very little work and none of it could be marked or given feedback. He is SN and SEN (no EHCp tho) and he found it inaccessible (plus, we have intermittent internet and v old laptop). I emailed school and asked for help and they sent home a text book. Just one. for the wrong GCSE. He still doesn't even have his exercise books. He doesn't stand a chance next summer :(

If they put the exams back for a few weeks it doesn't make up for missing months of school. Let the Teachers assess and grade them.

@Molly333

So what about the children's whos schools provided little work for the children during lock down with also very little feedback. That was my son's school. I did complain as did many other parents but nothing changed . My son has been bored witless and as much as i tried to motivate him it was very hard so i have paid for a maths tutor throughout that was also financially hard as i had a major drop in income too. Also what about the children who were anxious , were carers or needed extra support given at school . Im sure there are also many mums and dads on here who both had to work or single mums who worked throughout. This is not about lazy kids its about families and how hard this was individually which then impacted on the support parents could give . Unpopular as this may be i think teachers having 13 weeks off a year should now be changed . This would help these children but also working parents . I do not know any other job with that much holiday!

Yes you do.

Every other job that is 4 days a week.

Teachers and school staff are paid the equivalent of working four days a week, just compressed into a shorter period and then the pay is spread out over 12 months. Like medical staff do 36-40 hours a week compressed into three shifts - they're not on holiday on their days off, they're days they aren't earning.

Mind you, even so, I've seen enough of them in and working over the summer whilst I've been there - working, too. Which is the equivalent of being paid for four days but then having to do another shift for no pay every couple of weeks. On that point, I agree that I haven't heard of any other job with that expectation.

Ha, ye, mitzi and who is now doing better in the 'reformed' exams? Whoopsy, Mr Gove...

Unpopular as this may be i think teachers having 13 weeks off a year should now be changed . This would help these children but also working parents . I do not know any other job with that much holiday!

Noooo, UK already has v high levels of stress caused by our exam intensive system, this would be really a bad idea.

I already see too little of my kids and the summer holidays help them recharge and get a break from school. We need gaps in schooling to allow for creativity etc.

All work and no play...

You're right that things need to be done now, and teachers, pupils and parents need to know what is coming.

Surely though, several different scenarios with need to be planned for? If covoid isn't much more under control by next summer will it even be possible for students to sit in an exam hall?

I teach science gcse and we have lost so much time and we'll struggle to complete the syllabus. One extra month will make a big difference. Also as much as we look at gcses and want the pupils to achieve well, I go into school to educate my pupils and help them develop scientific knowledge, curiosity and skills. Regardless of exams I'd like to know that my pupils have come out of school with a better knowledge and understanding of the world - another month gives me a better shot!

Cheating has literally never really been a problem , and parts of it have to be done under teacher supervision

Did you ever read any maths coursework?!

Coursework is great for some subjects and done under more exam style conditions in school it's fine. It's absolutely necessary for arts based subjects, they should never be 100% exam.

Those forced to self isolate during exam season because a parent/sibling has symptoms will also need to be allowed for. If they aren’t whole exam halls will probably go down with it.

I don't think the money is there for 25% pay rises plus on costs (NI, pension) across the board in education! (the holidays are unpaid). There is also the question of whether students would actually attend. I taught somewhere with Saturday school once. Attendance was woeful!

Regarding the exams, even making them a month later would cause some enormous knock-on issues - two being who would mark them and whether they could all be completed within the school year. Most examiners are serving teachers and the pay for marking is not such that many people would give up a holiday.

I wonder if students could be given the chance to sit exams in 2022 instead of 2021 (optional) with govt funded distance learning catch up modules. If they handed the job over to the Open University, it might be done efficiently.

I can't see how part of the content could be lopped out of my subject because it's all so synoptic - in the consultation I voted for longer papers and (maybe) more choice of questions (although they stated research showed weaker/less prepared candidates suffer from too much choice - which I've certainly seen in practice).

Talking about recent NEAs here herc. I know maths doesn't want coursework back : that's OK, when I am ed sec/king of the world, I won't force you!

Also we are reworking all our plans on the assumption that pupils and staff and bubbles will be off at random. As much as we are prepping booklets and lessons to try to be able to run home schooling and in school lessons simultaneously, with the best will in the world if a teacher goes into quarantine, the pupils won't cover the syllabus at the same speed as when the teacher is in school. An extra month might offset that a little.

One extra month to teach and prepare would not be insurmountable to achieve If the decision is taken now and extra examiners recruited. This would likely involve increasing their rate of pay. They should also say, by October, that internal moderated tests should be kept carefully and mocks set and marked with a view to them being submitted as part of evidence should it be necessary to cancel the exams, though short of a serious outbreak, with enough time to prepare and funding to hire additional spaces and invigilators, it should be possible to set the exams. The key, as other pp have said is to make several plans NOW and not change them. We (teachers) can cope with most things thrown at us if given sufficient time.

If there are local lockdowns as expected this winter, or periods where year group bubbles have to isolate then there will be some students more disadvantaged again this year whereas others may be lucky enough to have an uninterrupted time and/or have really good home provision. The worst thing is no one can tell how this is all going to play out this winter. It would be fairer all around for teachers and students to have some certainty and perhaps some form of combination of continuous assessments and reduced final exam might be a better option.

I mean it's the great unsaid thing , isn't it? Local lockdowns (which it seems are more likely to be in areas with greater disadvantage) are going to disproportionately affect those kids.

Yes, it's no good telling us in November that exams will be later : I wouldn't then have needed to speed up my teaching so that I am teaching like a remote control on 36x.

Thanks Piggy. NEAs seem a lot better from a cheating pov. I think mathematicians just hate coursework!

@Piggywaspushed

I mean it's the great unsaid thing , isn't it? Local lockdowns (which it seems are more likely to be in areas with greater disadvantage) are going to disproportionately affect those kids.

That’s the thing. I seriously doubt there’ll be a whole England/UK lockdown ever again. That’ll look bad. It’ll be ‘obscured’ by mini local lockdowns. This will not help our children. It seriously pusses me off that kids, their education & their future is so so so low on the govts agenda. Triple lock pensions, tax us to the hilt but do not screw over the kids!

@waterofthehills No - most universities do not assess on a singular point of failure or success (with a few exceptions). Rather, degree calculations work to consider grades across a number of modules/papers that were not confined to the lockdown period - and unis continued to teach online Some assessments might have been modified. A no detriment policy (or policies) was also applied. Asssessments are internally and externally moderated. In general, it is very robust.

Thanks, tryingmybest13. I was just thinking back to my university days, when everything hinged on about 12 finals papers in a fortnight or less. But I guess there would have been regular essays that could have been looked at to calculate an estimated grade if necessary. Then, thinking about the Covid situation made me realise that I've no idea what the moderation process is like at degree level normally. When you don't have exam boards, how do you determine whether a 2:1 in English is at a similar level at Oxford or Bristol or Hull? From what you're saying, it sounds like there is an external moderation process of some sort.

@waterofthehills

Thanks, tryingmybest13. I was just thinking back to my university days, when everything hinged on about 12 finals papers in a fortnight or less. But I guess there would have been regular essays that could have been looked at to calculate an estimated grade if necessary. Then, thinking about the Covid situation made me realise that I've no idea what the moderation process is like at degree level normally. When you don't have exam boards, how do you determine whether a 2:1 in English is at a similar level at Oxford or Bristol or Hull? From what you're saying, it sounds like there is an external moderation process of some sort.

You have an external examiner - a senior member of staff from another university - to validate degree classifications.

Is that the old Blackadder joke about Hull there deliberately? If not, it is badly chosen as an example of anti climax because Hull is a perfectly fine university with a longstanding reputation for English... Just saying!

would have just about accepted Bedfordshire

Fwiw when I went to uni, I didn't have whole set of final exams : we had modules and continuous assessment and that was early 90s. I think some unis are still wedded to a 'finals ' approach (and first year exams which I also didn't have) but not all that many?

Today's let's make everyone panic by releasing to the media research suggest students are 3 months behind (although doesn't specify in what age groups : a 'behind' 8 year old is a different prospect from a 'behind' 15 year old). If this is verifiable in any way , that sort of finding will mean Ofqual and the DfE have to react in some way. Although, imo, a lot of the behindness is content delivery rather than actual intellectual skills at the upper end of secondary. It also can't apply as a broad brush to al year groups.

Piggy, yes it was Blackadder inspired (though also intended to be pretty random, as I don't have a clue about Hull's reputation for English). Maybe I've got a skewed persoective because of my degree (Oxford Classics early 90s, degree dependent on absolutely nothing other than finals papers). We did have exams in the middle of year 2 (of 4), but they didn't count towards the final degree.