In thinking delaying exams won’t help?

[NotDonna]

I’m posting to try to understand the issues better. Delaying exams seems futile. It won’t really address the inequalities in education. Wouldn’t CAGs be fairer? Are ranking, algorithms etc really necessary?

I’m not a teacher but used to work in HE many moons ago. On my course students were assessed by lecturers continuously. Essays and exam papers were internally moderated and then externally moderated. Im pretty sure there was no ranking or algorithms involved. I know Gove put an end to continuous assessment (foolish I think). But that would then provide ‘evidence’, wouldn’t it?

I’m trying to understand why this can’t happen with schools. Are the number of kids just too huge to moderate thoroughly? Take too long?
Would the ‘evidence’ be an issue leading to teachers constantly having to test, test, test. What was wrong with continuous assessment?
It’s difficult but I don’t see the solution being delayed exams. But again, maybe I’m missing something?
YABU - delaying exams is the best option
YANBU - delaying exams still won’t be fair

This year, schools awarded CAGs. Some schools awarded higher than others, as moderation across schools was non existent. This was unfair on pupils in schools who graded realistically (in line with previous results/how that cohort had achieved historically) compared to schools which graded optimistically. So the government came up with an algorithm, which lead to little grade inflation, so across the whole country would be probably fairly accurate. Unfortunately, it was very unfair on some students, and there were some high profile cases where individual students were ridiculously downgraded. However, i suspect on average across the country, it probably was realistic for most students. This hit the news and as a result the government let everyone keep their CAGs, which across the country, were higher than they should have been statistically.

It was a shit storm, but in the government’s defence they had only a few months to work this out. For the new y11/13s, they’ve had much longer. Neither option from this year was fair - carrying those over to next year would be madness. Exams are still the best way forward IMO. Nothing can undo the inequalities students have experienced over lockdown with some students getting a full time table and others getting very little.

If only Gove hadn’t done away with modular a levels and coursework. If my y13 had been cancelled in March, I’d still have done something like 4/6 of my exams already in y12/jan of y13. Much easier to give out fair CAGs if students already have 4/6 of their marks in the bag rather than doing them all in a 3 week period at the end of 2 years of study.

This isn't simple, certainly. I teach two subjects. I would favour a delay for my media based subject because it has NEA and lots of content and Ofqual have not cut any of it. It is also extremely hard to teach remotely. English, on the other hand, because Ofqual have cut a text, I may may well be thumb twiddling.

What Ofqual needed to do non politically and responsively, was to look at reducing burden of content. Again, their so called consultation was all about 'maintaining standards' and look where that got them with the algorithm...

The CAG algorithm would have been fine if it had been set with an algorithm which meant that you couldn't go up or down more than one grade. For me the issue wasn't that you could be predicted AAB and get BBB, but the fact that you might get CDE. Bonkers.

Anyway, I think it might help to have a little more time before the exams next year but as far as I can tell, up to now, Ofqual has stuck its fingers in its ears and said all will be well (for A level) and made some grudging and inadequate changes to GCSE. Maybe with a new (old) boss they'll revisit things. It would make sense to reduce content in so much that they put more questions on the papers and allow more choice of questions.

And, as a country, we need to examine our own obsession with examining.

I am not sure continuous assessment leads to grade inflation. It leads to more students being enabled to fulfil their potential.

@Piggywaspushed

And, as a country, we need to examine our own obsession with examining.

Couldn’t agree more! It’s insane.

@Piggywaspushed you make a very good point but I'm not clear how cutting content would help if different schools have covered different parts of the syllabus in a different order? How would they decide which bits to cut?

Going forward it makes sense to me for schools to try to cover the syllabus in a more consistent order where possible. In my DC school even the different classes in the same year group tackle the syllabus in a different order. I'm hoping they will change this in future as it would surely make managing pupil and teacher a since and remote learning more simple.

So you think the department of education aren’t thinking about this?

Such Naïveté 😂

Neither option is ideal. I'm thinking delaying means no watering down of grades or reduced syllabus, so that the exams are not devalued.

I don't want employers looking down at anyone who took their qualifications in 2021. Exceptions will be made for 2020 but I cannot see the same views being held in 2021.

It needs a decision one way or the other I think before Christmas. If it is postpone to July, all the implications on university entry need to be properly thought through and consulted. No last minute decision and guidance sneaked out on a Friday afternoon though.

I think that the vast majority of schools and teachers graded realistically. What was impossible to predict was which students would mess up on the day - because they misunderstood a question, missed a section, were not well, had a personal tragedy etc. This is what happens every year, and what brings down the grades of large numbers of students, and leads huge upset and disappointment.

I think what the CAG fiasco did was highlight just unfair it is to grade on the basis of a few exams taken over a few days.
If only Gove hadn’t done away with modular a levels and coursework. I fully agree with this. The exam format and means of assessment is what is unfair.

Also, your DS and others catch up but those who are already caught up will have longer to revise/consolidate- will this be fair? I’m not sure.
I agree it’d be great to cover the whole syllabus as otherwise there’s going to be gaps in learning which not only affects exam results but further study. What I don’t understand is why CAGs aren’t the way forward.

CAG will provide a greater benefit to those who are already better prepared in the syllabus by having done more, extra consolidation and revision helps so much less than actually learning the stuff, the students who have prepared more will start the year creating much better work that the school can use to evidence their grade irrespective of the ability of the student.

We have an examination based school system, like any system there are going to be winners and losers, however I can't see any but the most advantaged within a school "winning" with CAG's, and as we saw with the fiasco, any sort of levelling between schools means the most advantaged schools "win". Exams seem likely to give the best chance for the less advantaged to achieve, particularly if they're delayed.

chaotic, to give an example from my subject : for every unit , bar one, students study two texts. Easy enough to say 'just write about one'. In addition, there is an opening set of questions:
1a) write about one film
1b) write about another film
1c) now fairly tediously and arbitrarily compare the two films.

That last bit could definitely go.

The NEA involves 3 different (time consuming) tasks and the middle bit is pretty pointless : it could also go.

That's not borne out by statistics ,though fred. Once the government stripped away the algorithm , the stats showed the gap between advantaged and disadvantaged had closed. It was the algorithm that widened it.

The main issue is the lack of moderation against total year cohort. You may well have a student that is top of the class and exceptional in your school, you want to give them an A*. However, if you put that student against several hundred better students from other schools, they may well only be a B.

And, as a country, we need to examine our own obsession with examining.

100%

There used to be additional course work for GCSEs. I think these were stopped, except for Art type courses maybe, or severely curtailed.
The problem here, is that parents can give a lot of help, and some parents practically do the coursework, whereas, other parents for lots of reasons are unable to give the same sort of help.
When my (now adult) DC did their A Levels, they were modular, which has now been stopped.
However, the problem with this is that, if the student failed to get a good grade for the first module, they could retake that module, and all within the same A level grade.
However, no one thought of lockdowns, and schools closed, with exams being abandoned.
If the courswork and modular approach had continued, then there would be more to go on rather than just the teacher predictions.
The problem with the predictions, is that no one knew how the student would actually perform on the day.
I think the time does not really allow for the exams to be postponed, but if they did, then I would agree than postponment for just one month would be the best outcome, rather than 2 months.

@Piggywaspushed that makes sense, thank you 😊.

There is still coursework in quite a lot of subjects (called NEA). Cheating has literally never really been a problem , and parts of it have to be done under teacher supervision. It was Gove that wanted to position parents (and teachers, mainly) as a bunch of cheats so that he could enact his ideological position on coursework.

Dismounts soapbox...

Unpopular as this may be i think teachers having 13 weeks off a year should now be changed . This would help these children but also working parents . I do not know any other job with that much holiday!

You were making really good points until you started teacher bashing.

MPs work a four day week most weeks. They have to work on 13 Fridays throughout the year. This year MPs will have 16 weeks of holiday up to December 31st. It's time it changed.

The basic annual salary of a Member of Parliament (MP) in the House of Commons is £81,932, as of April 2020. The average salary for a secondary school teacher is £29,540 (£26, 236 for a primary school teacher).

@milveycrohn

There used to be additional course work for GCSEs. I think these were stopped, except for Art type courses maybe, or severely curtailed. The problem here, is that parents can give a lot of help, and some parents practically do the coursework, whereas, other parents for lots of reasons are unable to give the same sort of help. When my (now adult) DC did their A Levels, they were modular, which has now been stopped. However, the problem with this is that, if the student failed to get a good grade for the first module, they could retake that module, and all within the same A level grade. However, no one thought of lockdowns, and schools closed, with exams being abandoned. If the courswork and modular approach had continued, then there would be more to go on rather than just the teacher predictions. The problem with the predictions, is that no one knew how the student would actually perform on the day. I think the time does not really allow for the exams to be postponed, but if they did, then I would agree than postponment for just one month would be the best outcome, rather than 2 months.

Why is resitting modules a problem? I resat some of my a level chemistry modules - I had to relearn the content and earn the higher grade still, it’s not like it automatically went up just because I resat. I don’t know why a second chance at a messed up exam is seen as a bad thing?

Unpopular as this may be i think teachers having 13 weeks off a year should now be changed . This would help these children but also working parents . I do not know any other job with that much holiday!

You clearly don't work in a school 🙄

When the government announced THE GREAT SUMMER CATCH-UP it went down like a bucket of cold sick with parents who wanted to take their kids on holiday and give them a break from school work instead.

@noblegiraffe

When the government announced THE GREAT SUMMER CATCH-UP it went down like a bucket of cold sick with parents who wanted to take their kids on holiday and give them a break from school work instead.

We just love these grandiose announcements from government about initiatives which impinge on our time with our children and are woefully underfunded.

We only got FSM vouchers at first because teachers at the school went to the supermarket and bought them to post to us as the government had fucked up were tardy with their scheme.

When it all was horribly hard at one point when I was working full time and DS was struggling it only worked out because of supportive emails from a lovely teacher.

Nothing the government have done has helped us in the slightest. Fuckwits.

This isn't desperately relevant, but I've just realised that I don't know what happened with Finals this year. How were degrees awarded? Were they also based on tutor assessment? As I understand it, there's already very little moderation between universities, so if this did happen then presumably it would have made a smaller splash.

What ever they do they need to do it now so the kids and teachers know what is coming .

I can’t see how the teachers will be able to teach the students everything they have missed . Some will have missed more than others . Also what about local lockdowns and individual school Or bubble isolations .
I can imagine how hard it will be for teachers to provide the work for a year group or part of a year group at the drop of a hat if they get sent home . What if the teacher gets sent home .

I think it is very naive to think this year will be a full year of schooling .

Putting the exams back is going to impact universities and 6 th forms etc I’m sure .

Surely we could have measures in place with assessed coursework or pieces of work carried out by the students . Or some sort of modular assessment through the following year ? What did other countries in Europe do ?
Or could we have teacher assessed grades but release the way they will be moderated ahead of time so teachers know what they are doing .