To wonder if you know that the meat you buy could have been raised in a factory farm...

[MsWonderful]

And that the animals could also have been subjected to horrific cruelty even if the farm is Red Tractor approved?
www.daventry.radio/daventry-farm-suspended-from-red-tractor-scheme-amid-animal-welfare-concerns/

Human beings are omnivores, the very fact that a vegan diet also needs to include supplements is proof of that fact.

Omnivore means ‘can eat plants or animals’ not ‘has to eat plants and animals’.

There’s nothing, nutritionally, you can get from an animal that you can’t get from a plant, except possibly B12. The reason you get B12 from farm animals is that the animals themselves are fed B12 supplements. Vegans just cut out the middle man

In nature, animals get B12 (which is produced by bacteria) from consuming soil when they graze, or consuming other animals which get it from grazing. Apparently you can still get vegan-sourced B12 from eating unwashed organic veggies, but why would you when you can take one vitamin a day and be done with it.

dragged into place, thrown back down a chute into a pen when done, tossed around and aggressively pinned down etc.). If you think the Highland Show shearers are pinning the sheep down 'aggressively' then there's no further point in going on with this discussion. If the shearers don't hold on to them tightly then they'll struggle and get cut. Would you rather they weren't sheared at all? Have you ever seen a sheep infested with maggots?

When you’re really skint food is not just all you can control or one of the few variable costs you can control and at the same time possibly your only treat.

I like meat. It was a treat and I enjoyed it in that sense. I couldn’t afford it every day but the days I did it put a smile on my face to eat it. It was nice. Comforting.

I've been vegetarian for 30 years. YANBU OP.

@TheHappyHerbivore

Human beings are omnivores, the very fact that a vegan diet also needs to include supplements is proof of that fact.

Omnivore means ‘can eat plants or animals’ not ‘has to eat plants and animals’.

There’s nothing, nutritionally, you can get from an animal that you can’t get from a plant, except possibly B12. The reason you get B12 from farm animals is that the animals themselves are fed B12 supplements. Vegans just cut out the middle man

In nature, animals get B12 (which is produced by bacteria) from consuming soil when they graze, or consuming other animals which get it from grazing. Apparently you can still get vegan-sourced B12 from eating unwashed organic veggies, but why would you when you can take one vitamin a day and be done with it.

Trouble is that eating raw unwashed organic vegetables will also provide a handy source of other bacteria (plus other organisms) that aren't quite so helpful.

Once it's cooked, unlike B12 in body tissue, they're gone. Well, most of them.

And it's well known that absorbing supplementation isn't reliable for all people. As my Hb, Vitamin D and calcium levels demonstrated (I don't have cows' milk products due to allergy) when I was skint and spent years trying to make do with things like chickpeas, pulses, beans and fresh vegetables and a bunch of supplements. Autoimmune diseases can do that.

@MitziK I think autoimmune diseases and many other illnesses and conditions can be a serious mitigating factor when it comes to vegetarianism and veganism. I would never suggest that everyone in the world can become vegan for that very reason. But generally, veganism can be a perfectly healthy and nutritionally complete diet for humans of all ages who don’t have medical reasons which indicate otherwise.

@happyheartlovelife

Sorry to hear that...hope I didn't offend you . I thought it was a typo

If you think the Highland Show shearers are pinning the sheep down 'aggressively' then there's no further point in going on with this discussion. If the shearers don't hold on to them tightly then they'll struggle and get cut. Would you rather they weren't sheared at all? Have you ever seen a sheep infested with maggots?

Please don’t be so defensive - as I said, I don’t think you / all sheep farmers are cruel, and nothing I’m saying should be taken as a personal attack.

I am describing what I witnessed, and I do think the sheep were pinned down and handled aggressively. I’ve seen sheep being sheared in other environments (once on a hobby farm in the Lake District and a couple of times on programmes like Countryfile) where it wasn’t aggressive at all. But that was very different to what I saw at the Royal Highland - I suppose because it was a speed competition, a more aggressive approach is seen as warranted for the sake of completing the job as fast as possible.

I have dogs and horses and I would never handle them the way I saw those sheep being handled. And if I did, I think people would be horrified and would accuse me of cruelty. I accept that people have different standards for farm animals, but I don’t think that’s right.

I understand that sheep have to be sheared, because we have selectively bred them to have excessively thick fleeces which cause problems if not dealt with. Having got the sheep into this situation, I understand that we have a moral responsibility to get them out of it. But I think it should be done in a way which is gentle and puts the emotional and physical wellbeing of the sheep first, even if that is at the expense of speed and money.

The shearing companies referenced in the article I linked to above were paid more if they completed the job faster, and they don’t appear to have been subject to any real oversight. I would like to see sheep sheared in a way which doesn’t require them to be dragged and shoved around, knelt on, knocked about etc, even if it takes longer and makes the wool more expensive.

I think I have to reiterate again that I know this isn’t an issue for all sheep farms, and many sheep farmers and shearers will prioritise the wellbeing of their sheep when shearing. That’s great, I applaud it. But it is a fact that not all sheep are treated well, just like it’s a fact that not all red tractor meat comes from high-welfare sources. We can and should criticise these things without farmers who aren’t engaging in these cruelties becoming incensed and defensive at the criticism. If it’s nothing to do with you, you don’t need to defend yourself against it by claiming it’s not happening when there is plenty of evidence that it is in some places.

@formerbabe

Oh gosh. Not at all! It's ok. It's very strange to see that I don't eat lols.

If it’s nothing to do with you, you don’t need to defend yourself against it by claiming it’s not happening when there is plenty of evidence that it is in some places. I'm concerned that you are painting a biased picture of an industry that I'm involved in. This thread wasn't about sheep farming but farming on a huge scale. And you are invoking a speed shearing competition where the sheep aren't harmed at all.
You say you've got horses and dogs. I could dredge up all sorts of horrors about the treatment of both horses and dogs in this country.
Why do you have horses and dogs? What do you feed your dogs? Etc etc ad nauseam.

I'm concerned that you are painting a biased picture of an industry that I'm involved in.

But I’m not, at all - I’ve gone to great pains to reiterate that I know this isn’t an issue in every sheep farm. I’ve linked to specific, proven incidents and discussed those specifically. That isn’t biased. Pretending not cruelty ever occurs is biased! We can acknowledge and criticise cruelty when it occurs without it being ‘biased’ against the industry in which it occurs.

This thread wasn't about sheep farming but farming on a huge scale. And you are invoking a speed shearing competition where the sheep aren't harmed at all.

The thread has wandered over several different topics. It wasn’t me who originally brought up sheep shearing, someone else mentioned it first and I picked up on it because I think it’s a topic worth discussing. Threads can and do meander, it’s the nature of the beast. I mentioned the sheep shearing competition because it was completely relevant to the point I was making.

You say you've got horses and dogs. I could dredge up all sorts of horrors about the treatment of both horses and dogs in this country.

Of course you can - and please do, if it’s something that concerns you. If you mentioned abuse of horses and dogs I would be horrified by it (and as it happens I know it sadly does exist, and I am horrified by it). I wouldn’t try and pretend it didn’t exist or get defensive about my own behaviour. I wouldn’t try and convince you that you were wrong for mentioning it at all because it might give people a biased idea about horse and dog ownership.

Why do you have horses and dogs? What do you feed your dogs? Etc etc ad nauseam.

I haven’t questioned you at all about your own animals. I’ve explained at length that nothing I say is directed at you in particular.

@derxa

I don’t know if it’s because people have that association that sheep are ‘stupid I know that they are not but that's from experience. But I'm guessing you know nothing about them.

Ah Derxa, clearly, you know sheep. I loved our babies who we hand reared but I swear to god each one was on a mission to end itself in some ridiculous way. My favourite pet sheep ate any stone he could reach until we lost him to Frothy bloat because of it.

There is no such thing as humane/high welfare meat. They do not want to die,they are forced in to these slaughter houses. The killing process is fucking horrific. As I have said before they go in alive and come out chopped up wrapped in plastic.

Male chicks are thrown alive in to blenders. Broiler chickens are killed at six weeks, we are killing the oceans and it takes 10 bathtubs full of water to make just one hamburger patty.

The slaughter house nearest me kills 10,000 chickens every hour and 9,000 pigs every day. We all know that meat is carcinogenic. Pandemics,BSE,horse meat all found within the food chain.How is this ok?

I may not meet the chicken in Barn 5 in Norfolk who can cannot stand any longer as she has been bred to grow too fast and her legs wont hold her weight,but she will die where she lays unable to reach food or water, surrounded by 10,000 other boilers.

She will only be thrown in a bin when the agency staff come in to throw these birds into crates where they will be driven to a new kind of hell. Plunged into electrified boiling water where hopefully they will be rendered unconscious before a cold knife removes their head. As has been said before,in their compacity to suffer,they suffer as equals.

I see meat eaters excuse this industrial scale abuse the way we used to excuse slavery,rape and misogyny. We need to fight for these animals,they have no voice.

There is no such thing as humane/high welfare meat.

Some animals are raised in significantly better conditions than others. This is just a fact.

You may believe that no animals should be consumed by humans but that is a separate argument.

Organic, outdoor raised piglets have a very different life experience to those raised indoors on slats.

It is possible to buy eggs from chickens raised in a huge variety of circumstances from free range smallholdings to industrial indoor barns.

As a result some chickens lead pretty natural active lives and others are almost totally bald, scared of fresh air and have to relearn natural instincts if they ever get released.

Humans are natural meat eaters which means there is a role in society for people who value more ethically produced meat as well as vegans and space for both groups to campaign.

But they are still forced into these slaughter houses to die. There is no humane knife that splits their throat.

Yes but given humans have always eaten meat and are likely to for the foreseeable future I see no issue with those who do eat meat saying that the welfare of the animals while they live does matter.

Those who choose not too can obviously promote that message.

It's legal,but is it ethical?

If you are going to eat meat it is ethical to care about the life the animal had before you ate it yes.

Some people are going to eat meat regardless of some other people's views on how ethical that is to eat it in the first place.

So there there should be space in the debate both for non meat eaters and those who wish to promote more high welfare meat alongside meat eaters who are yet to be convinced of the merits of either argument.

@TheHappyHerbivore

Human beings are omnivores, the very fact that a vegan diet also needs to include supplements is proof of that fact.

Omnivore means ‘can eat plants or animals’ not ‘has to eat plants and animals’.

There’s nothing, nutritionally, you can get from an animal that you can’t get from a plant, except possibly B12. The reason you get B12 from farm animals is that the animals themselves are fed B12 supplements. Vegans just cut out the middle man

In nature, animals get B12 (which is produced by bacteria) from consuming soil when they graze, or consuming other animals which get it from grazing. Apparently you can still get vegan-sourced B12 from eating unwashed organic veggies, but why would you when you can take one vitamin a day and be done with it.

That's not true you know. You've been duped by vegan propaganda.

We don't feed animals B12 supplements. We can give the odd animal here and there B12 injections/drenches because just like humans sometimes one or two of them can become deficient.

I've seen myself the propaganda showing pictures of these medications claiming that we are supplementing animals with B12 so I know where you have got the idea from.

As I have said before they go in alive and come out chopped up wrapped in plastic.

No they don't. They go into a slaughter house and get killed and skinned and graded. They are then hung for 21-28 days (Beef) to allow the meat to mature. They then get distributed to butchers, supermarket meat processing plants etc which is where they are butchered into the cuts needed by each buyer. You give the impression that it's all one big instant conveyer belt, meat in one end, sausages out the other. It's not. There's a huge amount of work takes place between one and the other.

we are killing the oceans and it takes 10 bathtubs full of water to make just one hamburger patty

here you go again with your entirely irrelevant US 'facts'. A cow drinking out of a natural stream on an upland hill farm in England has very little impact in comparison to the water table being drained to pump water to industrial feedlots in Texas.

The slaughter house nearest me kills 10,000 chickens every hour and 9,000 pigs every day In the UK? That would mean that one single slaughterhouse near you would be responsible for 76% of all of the pig slaughters in the whole of the UK each week (Based on the figures I've just checked in last weeks farmers guardian). Are you sure?

We all know that meat is carcinogenic I thought recent studies were casting some pretty serious doubt on that.

Pandemics,BSE,horse meat all found within the food chain.How is this ok? it's not (although I don't understand the squeamishness about horse meat, the issue there was traceability). I am equally worried about pesticides etc used in fruit and veg growing entering the food chain.

We don't feed animals B12 supplements. We can give the odd animal here and there B12 injections/drenches because just like humans sometimes one or two of them can become deficient. Precisely. Us farmers don't give animals unnecessary and expensive doses of anything.

@Scrowy @derxa totally happy to read sources showing all farm animals in the U.K. aren’t fed b12 supplements. Would also be interested in knowing how they get it if they aren’t supplemented, since they can’t produce it themselves? Where does it come from? I suppose organic, grass fed animals may get it from the soil like wild animals, but what about animals who aren’t on organic pasture? It has to come from somewhere!

Sources for farm animals being fed b12:

www.vivahealth.org.uk/resources/nutrition-–-what’s-meat-and-where-else-can-i-get-it/vitamin-b12-online

www.farmhealthonline.com/disease-management/cattle-diseases/cobalt-deficiency/

I don’t think it’s wrong to feed supplements to animals. Supplements are great! I’m pointing out that you don’t need to consume animal products to get B12 because supplements exist, and the b12 you get from animals most likely derived from supplements anyway.

Looping back into the original thrust of this thread, I would imagine that higher welfare meat is less likely to be supplemented because presumably animals which are pasture fed on organic farms are the only ones realistically getting b12 from grazing, rather than from dietary supplements? So if someone is concerned about supplemented animal feed, buying grass fed and organic perhaps is a way to avoid that?

Cows and sheep still get B12 from silage/ fodder/ spring water etc if they are inside during winter.

As far as I'm aware there's generally not a huge difference in b12 levels in comparison with 'organic' systems.

Humans can also get b12 from fruit and veg (and grass) if they pull it out if the ground themselves rather than buy it chemically washed and atmospherically packed from the supermarket.

Without wanting to patronise you I'm not sure you have understood what the farmhealthonline link you provided is actually saying?

The viva link simply states farm animals are supplemented with B12... they don't back that up with any evidence though and I'm afraid Viva have to be treated as a very biased source.

Scrowy. Please feel free to defend this industry. Your choice. But it's never the animals choice.

I think that it's easy to tar all livestock farms with the same brush.

Many farmers do have excellent husbandry practices and do their best by their animals.

With intensive farming practices they animals don't have the best quality of life compared to those on outdoor units.

However, this all comes at a price. Consumers are having their available money squeezed and maybe don't feel comfortable buying intensive reared produce but don't have the option of buying ethically produced meat.

If you can afford to visit farm shops where the welfare maybe higher then you should. If you can't then you shouldn't be judged for making difficult choices to keep food on the table