SD’s DM doesn’t seem to care that SD is bullying

[SpongebobNoPants]

I’m posting because my DP and I are at a loss with what to do and he feels like he’s fighting an uphill battle with his ex regarding parenting.

SD has just turned 11 and has a history of bullying other children. She takes pleasure in putting other kids down and being dominating towards them.
She’s a pretty, smart and at times very funny kid, but this side of her personality is really horrible.

We’ve tried everything... appealing to her better nature, trying to instil empathy, talking to her about why she does it (she finds it funny apparently), punishment for her unkindness by imposing restrictions on her freedom or tech use.
Nothing seems to work.

Yesterday SD had one of my DP’s friend’s DDs over to play at her DM’s house (we all live in close proximity) and whilst this play date was happening SD prank called and messaged lots of girls she knows but targeted one girl in particular.
They called this child (a year younger than SD - only just turned 10yo) a dog, a pussy, called her out for a fight, called her ugly and a slut.

This child’s mother then got in touch with our friend and showed her the messages so she went over to speak to SD’s mum and she was completely not bothered. She rolled her eyes and said “Well that’s just how kids talk to each other these days”.

Our friend was pretty shocked by this as she punished her own DD for her part in the bullying and gave her a stern talking to about cyber bullying and its effects.

DP later on rang his ex to discuss what they should do regarding her escalating behaviour.
To give a bit more background SD has form for this sort of behaviour and most recently targeted one of my friend’s children with abuse during an online game. Both my friend and I impose restrictions and monitor our children’s tech use and the children are only allowed to add or talk to close friends or family members whilst online gaming or FaceTiming. But obviously my friend’s-DD felt safe talking to my SD as she is my stepdaughter and not a stranger to her.

It was so humiliating and upsetting to have to apologise to my friend and hear how SD had been so vile towards her DD.

Anyway, last night DP decided as he pays for SD’s mobile phone then he would take it away until Thursday and go through it all and put safety blockers etc on it. Also it was part of the punishment for her awful behaviour.

SD went back to her DM later last night and DP could see calls / texts coming through on SD’s phone and being answered by SD so she had logged onto her iPad and was continuing life as normal.
DP rang his ex to let her know and it transpired that she’d actually given the iPad to her for her use “Seeing as you’ve been petty enough to take her phone away”.
She said she won’t stop her using it and “girls will be girls” with regards to the bullying.

I feel like DP is fighting a losing battle to teach SD empathy and morals. I honestly don’t know what to do, we can try and have boundaries and parent her as best we can whilst she’s with us but it is unravelled as soon as she goes back to her DM’s house.

Her DM doesn’t seem to want to parent when it gets tough... don’t get me wrong, the girls are undoubtedly loved, fed, clothed and cared for but their DM seems to opt out of anything remotely challenging when it comes to actually parenting them and my 11yo SD seems to be getting no guidance whatsoever.

What can DP do? I’m at a loss on how to advise him as my ex and I coparent happily

Sounds like she’s a budding sociopath.
Hopefully starting High School will give her a wake up call, quite often they get used to being the Big Guy at primary and then go
to HS and quickly realise they’re not anymore or else get her comeuppance in the shape of a swift punch

It is very concerning. She may be distressed or just prone to a mean streak.

Although your DD has experienced bullying from her, I'd discourage a relationship between them as the bully may become dependent on DD throughout their teen years.

@Emeraldshamrock trust me I am doing everything I can to minimise SD’s influence and involvement with my DD.
They get along quite nicely now but I don’t encourage contact between them outside of SD’s contact time with DP at our home.

I’ve come to the decision that DD will not be going to the same secondary school as SD for example, even though her primary school is a feeder school for that secondary school. I’m sending her totally different.
I won’t let them socialise outside of the house very often either.
Our new house is near a lovely park and I allow DD to go and play there with her friends, but I’ve had to stop allowing it when SD is here as the last few times she’s gone with her SD has either been rude to my DD’s friends or even tried to pick a physical fight with other children.
This is a really nice neighbourhood and most of the parents know each other so SD is already getting quite an unpleasant reputation.

One thing that I haven’t mentioned is that SD’s behaviour isn’t just targeted at children. She can be very unkind and vocal about what she thinks of adults too, for example we were in a pub having lunch last week and woman walked past in a floaty summer dress and SD (very loudly!) said “URGH! What the hell is that dress? Why would anyone wear that?”

She also constantly assumes who looks at her is “giving her evils”. So for example we’re out somewhere and another child makes eye contact or looks at her / what she’s wearing she’ll become very defensive and say “What’s she looking at? She’s giving me dirty looks!”

It’s exhausting to be honest.

Another one suggesting that you go to the police. Because the next thing you know will be a young child killing themself as a result of your SD's bullying, and that will likely be a visit from a police officer anyway.

Have you made her apologise? Every time? Take her to the parents house and you need to be seen to actively do this. Otherwise it’s you that also gets the reputation.

The other thread (which is deleted now) was girls the same age as your DD and SD but written from the mums view. One of the girls (in the now deleted thread) was prank called and was made fun of by for her weird name (which the mum said in fairness was a weird name especially when put with the surname). The parents of the girl then kept calling the phone they pranked off (well into the night) and went and spoke to a parent and said they were involving the police and telling the school. The other thread played down the prank calling and her kids behaviour in it all and said they other parents were going OTT in their response. All the other posters said that the young girl was a bully, should have her phone removed and accept the consequences of her actions from the school. The person who started the thread didn’t come back.

As I said in my other post, anything you try and do will have no effect if the mum of SD does not see an issue with her daughters behaviour and minimises it. It will result in SD refusing to come to yours if she knows that when she’s at your house she won’t be allowed her phone and any other punishments you have put in place.
I would be concerned about the killing of snails and bugs for fun and purposely kicking a 5 year old in the face. I wouldn’t allow that behaviour from my 4 year old so I definitely wouldn’t allow it from a 14 year old.

Just to add, is it worth speaking to her school when she goes back about your concerns.
As others have said, I doubt she is popular at school, she seems to just be ruling with fear and she will get seen as the trouble maker from parents and her parents will then not allow any contact outside of school

@TheTrollFairy ahhh I see, no that’s not the other side of this incident. The little girl that was targeted has a very ordinary name... think along the lines of Lily Smith

Have you made her apologise? Every time? Take her to the parents house and you need to be seen to actively do this. Otherwise it’s you that also gets the reputation
I personally haven’t made her do anything as she’s not my child and I know it sounds awful but I make it known to my neighbours that she is not my child and I have no parental responsibility for her behaviour. They get it.
I’ll apologise to them when I see them but I think the reason they even still talk to me us because they know she isn’t my child IYSWIM.

We also don’t often find out about incidents until some time after it’s happened. I’ll be having a chat with a neighbour and they’ll drop in “oh XX upset my little Evie last week...”
I’ll say something back along the lines of “I’m so sorry, I’ll ask her parents to speak to her about it”.

My neighbours know my own DC so I don’t think they judge me by SD’s behaviour. One thing I have noticed is pity... comments like “It must be so hard for you” which makes me feel awful because SD isn’t some monster. Yes she’s a bully at times but most of the time we spend together as a family is pretty happy and calm.

SD has also started coming over to our area without our knowledge, her mum will drop her to the park near us and collect her again and we won’t know she’s been here because we’re at work. Some of the incidences have been during these times which means we’ve been unable to monitor what is going on.

As others have said, I doubt she is popular at school, she seems to just be ruling with fear and she will get seen as the trouble maker from parents and her parents will then not allow any contact outside of school
She is extremely beautiful (I’m not being biased, she is objectively a very very pretty little girl) and I think other children are drawn to her because of that.
I agree about the parents wanting to limit contact as we’ve seen it with our own family and friends. My cousin now won’t meet up with us if I have SD with me because she’s made his daughter so upset at past play dates.

However, parents have much less influence in their children’s friendship groups once they move to secondary school as they become much more independent and meet-ups with friends are a lot less in each other’s houses.
My concern is she’s developing a little “girl gang” mentality which will only be exacerbated by having more freedom as she gets older and a mother who quite frankly couldn’t give a shit what she gets up to.

God it all just sounds exhausting, OP. :(

Bloody hell, OP, I'm so sorry for you, that sounds a literally impossible situation. I assume your DP & his ex have shared custody, but it sounds like the arrangements are regularly broken - eg 6 weeks at her mum's because you suggested therapy. Can't help feeling that their extreme reaction means you touched a nerve. The last thing either of them want is an end to their mutual, no-criticism, no-consequences, everything's-fine fantasy world. It sounds like it's a refuge for them both. I talked it over with my OH who has been a stepkid, and the conclusion was, if there is a key to this getting better, it lies with SD's dad. If her anger stems from her parents' breakup, your chances of making headway with her at this stage are pretty much zero. It's all got to come from dad. How much time does he get to spend just with SD?

Jesus just reading about your SD makes me terrified of her and I wouldn't want my kids near her. Kids get bullied badly and it's really unfair. Half the thing we don't even hear about. Till it becomes too late. We had a girl commit suicide in her school because of bullies, another one was pushed into a river and drowned. Both happened in secondary school. Her behaviour really needs to be tackled now but it's a hard thing to tackle because she needs to change herself. Maybe her dad can sit down and talk to her or look at news stories where bullies have hurt others with terrible consequences. Also make sure you praise your daughter a lot in front of her and talk about how she gets on with everyone and how kind she is. Reward her behaviour. Make sure SD is nearby to hear the praise etc! Also talk about how people are remembered for their behaviour by their peers as adults and those that treat others badly are avoided so become lonely etc

If I was really mean. I'd tell SD I heard a nasty rumour about her from a friend of a friends daughter (dont mention who). Enough to give her a taste of her own medicine. Maybe tell her DM too. Ohh I'm sorry I didn't know SD had a so and so or whatever. Let's see how they feel. Too many kids get bullied and unfortunately age given no help whatsoever. My sister was spat at and had a bin emptied on her in school. Teachers didn't do anything at the time. God knows how she dealt with it.

If her anger stems from her parents' breakup, your chances of making headway with her at this stage are pretty much zero. It's all got to come from dad. How much time does he get to spend just with SD?
She was 11 months old when her parents split up so she has zero recollection of it, she isn’t angry because of that at all. She was also very welcoming and happy to have me in her life so I don’t think it stems from her parents not being together.
My DP doesn’t spend a huge amount of time with just SD because she also has an older sister. I ensure the three of them get time together alone but he can hardly leave out his eldest DD to appease the youngest. They both have limited alone time with him, but to be honest they don’t really ask or seem to require alone time... they often ask and want me and my DCs there too as they very much see us as a family.
They’ve had holidays abroad and trips etc without us too, and I’ve done the same with my own DCs

but it sounds like the arrangements are regularly broken
No this isn’t the case to be honest, it was just this particular time. We are supposed to have SCs EOW and one night in the week but both sides are pretty flexible with that. We tend to have SCs most weekends (3/4) and they come for dinner at least twice a week but tend not to stay over on school nights which is their choice.
Usually their mum is pushing for us to have them at weekends so I doubt she’d stop contact completely. The only reason we don’t have them every weekend is because my DP has to work one weekend a month and I’ve carved out that time to spend alone time with my own DCs as I work full time too and feel I don’t get much quality time with them otherwise.

Also make sure you praise your daughter a lot in front of her and talk about how she gets on with everyone and how kind she is. Reward her behaviour. Make sure SD is nearby to hear the praise etc!

I think if I did this it would only make SD resent my DD. There has been a lot of (understandable) jealousy from SD towards DD in the past because we live with SD’s dad, and the last thing I want to do is inflame that and inadvertently make DD her target again. For the most part they get along really well at home now.

Honestly, my SD isn’t an evil monster. I feel like I’ve only described the bad in her on this thread because the bad behaviour is what I need advice about. I’d say for 90% of the time she’s very nice to be around, she’s got a good sense of humour and it quick witted.

I spoke to my mum about this today as I sometimes feel bad constantly talking to DP about it. My mum suggested that SD, even though she comes across very confident, seems actually like she her low self esteem.

She pointed out that a lot of SD’s unpleasant comments are about appearances. I think we all assume she’s confident and self assured because she’s pretty and cocky. But thinking about it her DM is completely obsessed with her own looks and weight. The girls have both told us that DM won’t buy bread or treats in the house ever and has told them both “they’ll make you fat” - both SDs are absolutely tiny and have never had any weight issues.

I wonder if these views may be colouring SD’s perception of herself?

I think I’m going to try love bombing her. Praise her a lot when she’s being helpful and nice, but I will still correct her when she’s being out of line.

But as I’ve mentioned before it’s difficult to correct her bad or bullying behaviour because we often don’t even know about it until much later on.

I personally haven’t made her do anything as she’s not my child and I know it sounds awful but I make it known to my neighbours that she is not my child and I have no parental responsibility for her behaviour. They get it.

I don't get this washing your hands of her. She's your SD, your partner's child. Don't you have some shared, moral responsibility to ensure she grows up to be a decent kid, seeing as you're essentially helping to raise her when she's in your care?

@Longwhiskers14
I don't get this washing your hands of her. She's your SD, your partner's child. Don't you have some shared, moral responsibility to ensure she grows up to be a decent kid, seeing as you're essentially helping to raise her when she's in your care?
Ahh I wish this was the case. I’m assuming you’re not a stepparent? I have not washed my hands it her at all and provide a loving home, meals, and a caring environment for her when she’s with us.
The fact I’ve posted on here asking for ways I can help her shows I care about her and haven’t washed my hands of her.

But she is not my child and I have no legal or moral right to punish her or raise her how I see fit unfortunately. She has 2 parents to do that for her and I am neither of those people.

I do not have the right to contact her school, doctors or take her to counselling for example, nor do I get a say in any of her medical decisions. It is literally (not in a horrible way) nothing to do with me.
Trust me, if I tried to do any of these things or rays her as my own child then her own DM would go apeshit.
It’s not an offensive thing to say she’s not my child because it is simply a fact.
I don’t get a say in how she is raised, I can only advise my DP on what I think he should do but ultimately it’s up to him and his ex whether they take that advice.
I can only enforce boundaries in my home where me and my DCs are concerned.

I am not therefore going to apologise for her behaviour or force her to apologise for her behaviour because I ultimately have zero control over it.

DP can barely enforce punishments because her DM undermines him as soon as she has SD back in her care, and he actually has parental rights for her so I can’t see much I could do more to her honest.

It’s a crap situation to be in when you can see her actual mother doing such a shoddy job of it, but she is her mum and I am not. If she was my child we wouldn’t be in this situation.

I'm not a step-parent and I really didn't mean any offence with my question, so apologies if it came across like that! I'm just really curious, because I assumed that as a step-parent you would have some say in how the child was raised while in your care. Does that mean your DP treats your DD in the same way, having no involvement in her upbringing beyond being physically present every day?

I feel so sorry for you. No matter what you and your partner do to help her, it's going to be undermined by her mother. The only thing that may work is if you and your partner had your stepdaughter the vast majority of the time, but that's very unlikely to happen - even if you went to court.

I think all you can do is carry on doing what you're doing. It probably won't work because of the mother, but at least you know you've done all you can. And some of what you say might sink in eventually.

I do like other posters' suggestions of getting a police officer to come round and give her a stern talking to. It sounds like she lacks any kind of conscience but it MIGHT just scare her enough to have an effect.

@Longwhiskers14 no offence taken at all, I just wanted to explain the reality of being a stepparent. I obviously get some say in our home but not in her overall life if you see what I mean. Her DM and DP make all the parenting decisions as they are her parents, I’m not.
I offer advice to my DP and he listens but doesn’t always agree as happens in all families from time to time, except I’m not her parent so do not get the final say.
DP helps parent my children to a point, but again it’s ultimately down to me to make the final decisions. I’d respectfully take on board his opinions but if I don’t agree with them I’m under no obligation to compromise with him as they’re not his biological children. My ex and I will make the final decisions as their parents.

The only thing that may work is if you and your partner had your stepdaughter the vast majority of the time, but that's very unlikely to happen - even if you went to court
I could not cope with that, I’ll be perfectly honest. DP works long hours and even if her mum was willing I wouldn’t want to take on the vast majority of responsibility for DC that aren’t my own. I think it would negatively impact my own DCs.

I don’t feel bad saying that because I wouldn’t expect my DP to take on the main caring responsibilities for my DCs either.

I would be surprised if she gets away with this for long at secondary school. I think the only thing you/DH can do is proactively contact the school once she's been there a month or two "to see how she's getting on because we had issues with her (cyber)bullying other children earlier this year and were hoping this school would be a fresh start for her". That way they will have an eye on her and if there's any hint of her bullying other kids, they will know to take it seriously and believe any reports made against her. Children like this are often good at manipulating adults as well as their peers.

I would be surprised if she gets away with this for long at secondary school
Oh I think she might, the DC will look out for the popular bully to befriend or avoid.
It is like when small time criminals go to prison after a time among the big fish the rise up and become one.
Bullies attract bullies.

Well, I take your word for it that your SD is not angry re her parents' breakup, obvs. But from what you've said, it sounds like that girl has a lot of anger or sadness inside her, and only a properly trained therapist stands a chance of identifying where it comes from. I don't know about you, but I don't believe kids - or people generally - are evil. Bullies are made, not born.

I think your DP is going to have to have this out with her mum. By 'kicking off majorly' about therapy she's standing in the way of probably the only thing that stands a chance of helping her daughter. Sounds like she's in denial about her behaviour. Btw that bit of behaviour you mentioned - sort of paranoid, other people are 'giving me evils' - is classic for bullies, I think. The kid who used to bully me would do it all the time; I used to think it was just a paper-thin excuse to start a fight but I now think he actually felt picked on.

I love your idea of love-bombing and I hope to goodness it gets through to her. It's going to be difficult to do that while maintaining limits on phones, visits etc but you know that already.

She's lucky to have you.

@Furtwangler thank you, that was a kind post