Are our kids being thrown under the bus

[Pixxie7]

Chris Whitney has said that children are safe to go back to school because they are at low risk of complications from Covid.is this another case of politics being more important than lives?

@StepAwayFromGoogle sheesh there’s always one not so clever clogs isn’t there. Quite clearly my point was that he’s working with a government who purposefully advocate that the absence of evidence as absence of evidence, the Russia report is a perfect example. So yes, I do think that what he’s not saying is entirely politically motivated. He’s not lying, he’s just not saying it.

Sorry *absence of evidence = evidence of absence!

Chris Whitty isn't sitting in the middle like some great big puppet master trying to give false information to the general public.

Poor chap - I think he’s got enough to do!

@modgepodge private day nurseries are very different to state school!
My classroom is tiny, I've visited some of the day nurseries that filter to my school, they are huge, with larger toilet, washing facilities etc
They are also very much in pre existing 'bubbles' and play, eat etc in separate areas. They are also much smaller, our biggest local day nursery definitely has less than 100 children each day, most state schools have many more than that.
School children move around the building for lunch, pe etc It is a very different environment. They also arrive and leave at the same time and my school has over 600 pupils!

@Pixxie7

Herd immunity was the government’s original idea. Of course it’s not ethical but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen.

I believe that Herd immunity has been the strategy all along. It was slowed down a little in 'lockdown' (much looser than other countries, hence the higher death %) but it is still the general idea. Hence slow mixed messages from Govt, passing the buck to local councils and schools themselves, and of course, Joe Public (most of whom have behaved far more responsibly than any Ministers / Crown). Hence getting everyone out over the summer, getting everyone back to the office and pub, dining out, opening pools/gyms etc. Chris Whitty was clear: 'we are at the limits of what we can open without transmission increasing', so to open Schools (YES, but it must be in a sustainable way) we need to close down other areas (pubs etc) but they won't as the economy needs boosting. So, its 'Good Luck to All' this coming Autumn and Winter.

@MaverickSnoopy

Hands up I have from the beginning been one of those super cautious people and wasn't pleased when the govt said early years was to return first. I didn't send my 3yo back in June, but I was at home and well placed to educate her, so didn't feel a need. However, she's now 4 and both she and her older sister are beyond DESPERATE to get back to school. It's absolutely in their best interests and their mental health is suffering. My 4yo wakes with anxiety throughout the night and my 8yo now has an awful temper, equally as much she bursts into tears.

Yes I'm concerned about the risk to children, but believe that the risk of not returning is far greater. However, my primary concern lies with to the adults involved in getting children back to school. I think the guidance to facilitate it needs to be better, to protect both teachers and adults doing the school run. I have children in different year groups and drop offs will be staggered. This will mean waiting outside the front of school for 25 minutes with all the other parents waiting for the next drop. Of course I plan to distance myself as best as possible, but there really is no where to go. There will be at least 100 adults congregating daily and on a dangerous road that has accidents. This is one school. Childminders too are being expected to be in multiple locations at the same time and wait often with young children on a dangerous road.

I know many people are not worried about getting covid. But I am. I'm very overweight and while I'm losing, it does take time. My youngest child may have problems with her immune system. With multiple allergies and in and out of hospital for infections, she picks things up easily and gets them badly. I'm scared for her. My husband works in a nursery and I am a childminder. Really, the guidelines aren't good enough to protect adults. If more adults start getting, either displaying symptoms or asymptomatic, then we're looking at the R rate increasing further, which it already is nationally.

@StepAwayFromGoogle Regardless, children need to get back to school. There really isn't a realistic Plan B. To a PP point, no, WFH with children is really NOT working. Parents are not teachers. The mental health impacts of expecting parents to work, and take on an additional job as a teacher, are immense.

I’m glad my employer doesn’t think like you. I’ve been working from home and had DS at home. In fact my workload increased at the beginning of lockdown, it’s only just now going back to normal levels. It was stressful especially as his days where he struggled to engage were days I had back to back meetings. Although I was just flexible about both of our days. I don’t think people are arguing against schools going back, they are arguing for proper protections; masks if necessary, reducing the amount of unnecessary contact etc.

I’m most definitely for my DS going back to school however, I do want proper protections for his teachers.

So very lost - yes, this is of course possible hence I said that no one else was ill, rather than no one else got it. At the time it wasn’t possible for any of us to get tested. If I had those symptoms now, I wouldn’t go to work, I’d get tested, and upon testing positive my class and adults I’d had close contact with would be required to go home and self isolate for 2 weeks. (Of course, this in itself may be enough to shut my small school as I’m not sure we would have enough staff to stay open!)

Can I just say it’s not just independent school teachers that have been back since June. I and all the staff that are not shielding went back to teaching full time from June too.

We can't keep kids at home while hospital admissions and deaths are so low. It's simply unjustified.

More people are dying of other causes now. The NHS as well as schools need to get going properly.

Kids need to be in school now and other areas of society closed as necessary. The public support this and anyone that doesn't is in denial as it's happening.

I believe that Herd immunity has been the strategy all along

I actually agree. I really don’t think there is much intention to keep rates below that which the health service can manage. So considering apparently we didn’t overwhelm them before, we are in for another rough ride.

[quote allfalldown47]@modgepodge private day nurseries are very different to state school!
My classroom is tiny, I've visited some of the day nurseries that filter to my school, they are huge, with larger toilet, washing facilities etc
They are also very much in pre existing 'bubbles' and play, eat etc in separate areas. They are also much smaller, our biggest local day nursery definitely has less than 100 children each day, most state schools have many more than that.
School children move around the building for lunch, pe etc It is a very different environment. They also arrive and leave at the same time and my school has over 600 pupils![/quote]
Yes but not all day nurseries are as you describe and they aren’t the same 100 children every day. Some will do full time, many many others will do part time with the missing days taken by other children.

Babies and toddlers are germ magnets too, far more so than 5 year olds and up who don’t generally shove everything in their mouths!

@modgepodge

So very lost - yes, this is of course possible hence I said that no one else was ill, rather than no one else got it. At the time it wasn’t possible for any of us to get tested. If I had those symptoms now, I wouldn’t go to work, I’d get tested, and upon testing positive my class and adults I’d had close contact with would be required to go home and self isolate for 2 weeks. (Of course, this in itself may be enough to shut my small school as I’m not sure we would have enough staff to stay open!)

Fair enough. This is the case prior to school closure for my DS (not so small) school, I imagine this was true for others. As whole households were told to isolate if one had symptoms, this meant teachers also had to isolate for sniffly children.

[quote allfalldown47]@modgepodge private day nurseries are very different to state school!
My classroom is tiny, I've visited some of the day nurseries that filter to my school, they are huge, with larger toilet, washing facilities etc
They are also very much in pre existing 'bubbles' and play, eat etc in separate areas. They are also much smaller, our biggest local day nursery definitely has less than 100 children each day, most state schools have many more than that.
School children move around the building for lunch, pe etc It is a very different environment. They also arrive and leave at the same time and my school has over 600 pupils![/quote]
But there’s still children, mixing, with no social distancing. My 18 month old puts everything in her mouth, as do many others her age. I can’t imagine nursery staff are able to grab everything every child has chewed and sterilise it before another child chews it. She also can’t wash her hands independently, which the vast majority of primary pupils can.

If bubbles are smaller, hopefully the spread would be limited to just that bubble. But everyone in the bubble Would have been exposed If someone gets it. Have there been many cases reported in nursery bubbles?

The aim of lockdown and school closures was not so no one would ever get it any more and no one would die. The aim was to not overwhelm the NHS. I think measures should be taken in schools like masks for older kids and probably opening part time. But expecting that no one will ever get ill or die of it or the fact some people will is not good enough reason for the education of children to stay stopped for any longer. And I say that as someone in the vulnerable group myself with secondary age kids

I'm a bit tired of hearing how teachers are at risk. What about nursery staff who can't socially distance at all, have no protective equipment, have worked through most of the pandemic including holidays and get shit money? I don't work in a nursery either.
I,think secondary school could have stayed open but when they shut no one knew the risk to children was so.small. I think that was the main reason they shut and it wasn't really anyone's fault.

@Pixxie7 No. what do you suggest as the alternative?
The virus is not going to go away. There is talk of a vaccine in maybe 6-18 months but if that doesn't happen, the latest evidence is it's here for another 2 years at least.

Do you suggest schools are closed for up to 2 years?

And why should the UK be any different to most of Europe where children have been in school for months?

The rate of deaths amongst children is minute if you look at the stats and most who did die had other health issues.

Life cannot be put on hold for 2 years. Children need to be in school for educational and mental wellbeing. Parents need to be able to work. The economy is fucked, our children will be paying for this for decades to come in taxes and maybe unemployment and we all need to try to get back to some sort of normality.

So there have been 20 deaths in the 0-19yrs age bracket in the UK. Of those, 16 had underlying health issues and 4 were not at clinical risk.

In a normal year on average influenza will kill 38 under 15's who are not at clinical risk, and 128 who are at clinical risk.

The risks to children are very low and similar to what they faced in the pre-Covid world.

^I don't think anyone says they shouldn't open. My concern is that they should stay open and not close due to lack of staff or burst bubbles.
Open safely is what most people want. Open at all costs is ridiculous^

^this

All Boris Johnson wants to to announce all
Schools have returned. When individual schools have to close due to local outbreaks those schools and local authorities will take the blame

@SoVeryLost. I'm very glad you have a kind, flexible employer who is happy for you to shift your day based on your child. I do not.
I have a five year old and a two year old. Me and DP were both working part time (longer half days) and trying to shoehorn full time jobs into part time hours. My 5 year old suffered horribly in lockdown, she developed severe anxiety and agoraphobia, it was heartbreaking to see. She wouldn't engage with school work, would just have a meltdown. On the rare occassions she would, the two year old would inevitably come over to get involved and start scribbling on what we were doing. I'd love to see how primary school teachers would manage to teach with a room full of toddlers running around too. It wasn't just me that struggled. I literally know zero parents who found home schooling easy to juggle with work or with younger siblings.
Without going part time I'm not sure how teachers can be protected? A class of 5 year olds can't be expected to wear masks or properly understand social distancing.

The risks to children are very low and similar to what they faced in the pre-Covid world

Agreed but schools have to be staffed by adults. If the staff get sick the schools will have to close.

The lack of a credible plan to reduce the spread of Covid in schools is appalling. The lack of a plan B if local outbreaks occur is also appalling.

YABU. Schools must go back. The children are at little risk. The risk is for the teachers/parents/community and this is why I think the government should allow teachers to wear PPE/masks so they can keep themselves a bit safer.

Schools have restarted in many European countries without cv19 cases spiking, but they have used PPE as well as SD. I understand that the Israel cases have been linked to kids stopping wearing PPE in the heatwave and supply teachers being shared between schools.

Thankfully, children tend not to have serious consequences...but the adults they live with can. I’ve read a number of times children over the age of 10 transmit it in the same way as adults. I am hoping it won’t happen but I can’t see how schools returning will not result in another wave.

Covid will likely be around for at least another year and may be with us permanently. We will all have to get used to life with a higher degree of risk.

School should reopen, but no PPE and whole class/year/school "bubbles" is madness (with each child on average having at least one sibling, that really means no bubbles at all).
I expect schools may start closing again (locally at first, but in many local areas soon enough) around half term (it does take a while for numbers to build up).
I'd be pleasantly surprised if there's no second wave by Christmas (given the rest of Europe is already entering second wave, probably much earlier)

According to the ONS, Flu and pneumonia are now killing 6 times as many people as Coronavirus. Deaths are at their lowest since March. Yes, Winter is coming but we do not know how quickly the virus will spread then.

There are millions of people returning to work in less than optimal conditions. It's time to re-open schools. Teachers who genuinely feel they are being sacrificed and sent to their deaths should not be forced to return. I don't know how we'd resolve the resulting teacher shortage but I would prefer not to have resentful, scared teachers in classrooms.