To ask the mask police to please PLEASE stop

[PennyDreadfuI]

Another mask thread but I'm not going to apologise because I'm absolutely at the end of my tether with this sort of thing.

I can't wear a mask because I have trigeminal neuralgia and I've lost count of the stares, comments and filthy looks I've had (and yes, I do wear a lanyard, even though I'm not keen on advertising the fact that I have a hidden health condition). I've heard of people not being allowed on buses, being challenged by staff to explain their reason for exemption and being told they can't enter shops despite being exempt (none of which is legal). I've been told I should wear a visor (I can't, and they're next to useless anyway - Scotland have just banned them unless they're worn with a mask), that I should just stay at home (I can't and neither do government guidelines suggest I should), that I shouldn't use buses (I don't drive and can't walk long distances or cycle because I have inflammatory arthritis) and that I'm selfish (I'm not - if I could wear a mask, I would).

I understand this is a contentious issue but please, can people just think for a minute before they judge or comment? Exemptions are there for a reason - those who are sticklers for The Rules should surely accept and respect this one, too. It's awful that people are too scared to go out for fear of what's essentially discrimination.

The pandemic is bad enough by itself - let's not lose our sense of empathy and humanity, too.

I have bilateral TN & have worn a mask for years in cold weather as I find it reduces attacks. However, I have total sympathy for anyone that cannot wear a mask, whether for physical or psychological reasons. Some with TN find them beneficial, others not.

What pickles my parsnip are folk that kick off stating it’s against their rights to wear a mask, that the science is wrong or puts conspiracy theories before common sense.

I’d rather listen to my learned Medical Doctor & biochemist friends who advocate mask wearing, and help protect others by wearing one myself.

My colleague rarely needs to change bus or train - probably twice a week. She only changes if there are people without masks closer than 2m. That isn’t an everyday occurrence on her journey. But she leaves early every day just in case and has a coffee before work.

Good luck to her when schools go back and the passenger limits are still in place.

Whereabouts is the link to the masks? Is it earlier in the thread?

MMN123 but your whole argument that it's nobody else's business and nobody should be challenged does support those who just don't like them!

If only those who genuinely can't wear masks don't wear them nobody will challenge people not wearing them because there will be so few that it's obviously due to genuine inability to wear them. If everyone who technically could claim exemption doesn't even try to get used to them then there already so many that the people who just don't want to wear them feel entitled to go mask less unchallenged too. The more people not wearing them and not being challenged by security or staff in shops and other venues, the more it snowballs to your argument that the vulnerable should only go out in N95 respirator masks and there is no community responsibility, only personal responsibility.

@MMN123

There was a guy in my local Poundland wearing something like this the other day:

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I assumed he has an underlying condition!

Is this the mask you were talking about? I wear glasses so that's no good as the harness goes right around your face. I'm also not going to be able to talk to customers wearing that

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras
If you are high risk and you are working then your employer has a duty of care to you. It’s for them to figure out how, not you. Unions are advising staff in many workplaces.

No not the Poundland guy - I linked elsewhere.

The points you are raising have been addressed in the thread already. I’m not suggesting nobody challenges anyone. Just that the public doesn’t.

If it’s not being handled well in your area, write to your MP, write to your bus company, deal with the problem.

The problem isn’t high risk people or those who cannot wear masks.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Contact lenses.

Only useful outside work.

But it’s also not what I was suggesting.

My friend has TN and wears a mask.

My family member has COPD and wears a mask.

I have asthma and wear a mask.

I think some of the excuses for not wearing a mask are just exactly that - an excuse.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

But you illustrated the issue beautifully.

But I wear glasses. But it would take ages. But. But. But.

I’m high risk. I look at the world as it is now and I make choices. Some involve me changing how I do things. I could but but but every step of the way if I wanted to but there is and should be a level of personal responsibility. We all benefit from some collective community measures but it isn’t an either / or. And but but butting because I have glasses it I don’t have time or it would cost an extra £1.50 is not that different to ‘But the mask is hot and I don’t like it’.

I have total sympathy for anyone that cannot wear a mask, whether for physical or psychological reasons. Some with TN find them beneficial, others not.

What pickles my parsnip are folk that kick off stating it’s against their rights to wear a mask, that the science is wrong or puts conspiracy theories before common sense.

I’d rather listen to my learned Medical Doctor & biochemist friends who advocate mask wearing, and help protect others by wearing one

Totally agree.
I am officially exempt but at the end of my last consultation, shortly before masks became mandatory, I checked with my doctor. To my surprise he said I should wear one as it would help to protect me. Weird, I thought. Yet it seems he's right. The latest medical studies suggest that masks protect the wearer as well as those around them. I'm not saying that everypne can wear one, but the only time I find them difficult now is in extreme heat.

@Glitteryone

My friend has TN and wears a mask.

My family member has COPD and wears a mask.

I have asthma and wear a mask.

I think some of the excuses for not wearing a mask are just exactly that - an excuse.

In some case you are correct. Some people take the proverbial.

But not all.

Some people with the things you list cannot wear masks.

[quote MMN123]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras
If you are high risk and you are working then your employer has a duty of care to you. It’s for them to figure out how, not you. Unions are advising staff in many workplaces.

No not the Poundland guy - I linked elsewhere.

The points you are raising have been addressed in the thread already. I’m not suggesting nobody challenges anyone. Just that the public doesn’t.

If it’s not being handled well in your area, write to your MP, write to your bus company, deal with the problem.

The problem isn’t high risk people or those who cannot wear masks.[/quote]
An employer only has to make reasonable adjustments. Government is saying that n95 and above masks are for healthcare workers only. It's not reasonable for me to.insist that my employer sources these and fit tests me. I'm already having to fight to not have another cashier sat in my cubicle less than a metre away from me and no one on my till while I'm at break because there's no opportunity for me to clean everything when I get back. I don't fancy my chances insisting on n95 respirators.

Contact lenses.
A) I can't afford them and B) I cannot go anywhere bear my eyeball. Can't put drops in, definitely can't put contact lenses in.

In which case whatever makes you high risk doesn’t prevent you working in your public facing role. Is that right?

I wasn’t suggesting you insist on an n95. You say you are at unacceptable risk - I assume you are a transplant recipient or similar, in which case you should talk to your employer and medical team. They must make adequate provision or change your role.

One of my team has a kidney transplant so special measures are in place for her.

[quote MMN123]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

But you illustrated the issue beautifully.

But I wear glasses. But it would take ages. But. But. But.

I’m high risk. I look at the world as it is now and I make choices. Some involve me changing how I do things. I could but but but every step of the way if I wanted to but there is and should be a level of personal responsibility. We all benefit from some collective community measures but it isn’t an either / or. And but but butting because I have glasses it I don’t have time or it would cost an extra £1.50 is not that different to ‘But the mask is hot and I don’t like it’.[/quote]
What are you talking about? The steps you are suggesting people take aren't reasonable. Why will it cost an extra £1.50? Bus fare here is £3. If I had to change at every stop that would cost me £30! Plus a twenty minute wait each time would take me 200 minutes plus journey time. How is that reasonable? Once the schools go back god knows how bad it will be. The buses will be full constantly and I doubt many teenagers will wear masks on the buses.

So no, it's not at all reasonable to tell a disabled person to keep changing buses, paying each time, taking three plus hours to make a half hour bus journey or to have to pay for contact lenses and try to overcome a phobia of having things in their eye just to wear a mask that would be utterly impractical in a customer facing role, all to accommodate people who aren't wearing masks. That is disability discrimination

Why would you change at every stop?!

Even if nobody takes the piss, you will have some people on buses without masks. They are allowed to be there. So you can move away from them or get off the bus. Why is that unreasonable? You can also stay on the bus - some of your customers won’t have masks either. I’m not clear how you are so vulnerable you can’t share a bus with an unmasked person but then you spend all day dealing with the public, some of whom won’t have masks!

@MMN123

In which case whatever makes you high risk doesn’t prevent you working in your public facing role. Is that right?

I wasn’t suggesting you insist on an n95. You say you are at unacceptable risk - I assume you are a transplant recipient or similar, in which case you should talk to your employer and medical team. They must make adequate provision or change your role.

No I'm not a transplant recipient.

Until Covid my medical condition didn't prevent me from working in this job. I had to be careful to avoid people with chicken pox and paid particular attention to hygiene but I wasn't prevented from doing my job. I don't know what will happen now. I don't know if I will have a job if shielding is unpaused. I doubt employers have to support you indefinitely.

They must make adequate provision or change your role.

No they don't. They have to make reasonable adjustments. What is reasonable depends on lots of things - size of company, what adjustments are being requested, how feasible it is to provide them etc. If they can't be provided and no alternative job can be found they can legally dismiss you.

And quite lot of people just can't be arsed.

Ah so you’re still shielding? I thought you were working now!

Depends on your role but one would hope most employers would try to move vulnerable folk into non customer facing roles if feasible.

But not all employers are created equal.

But this is why unions are so vital. I was horrified to find all those under 40 at work weren’t in the union. All the older folk were.

@MMN123

Even if nobody takes the piss, you will have some people on buses without masks. They are allowed to be there. So you can move away from them or get off the bus. Why is that unreasonable? You can also stay on the bus - some of your customers won’t have masks either. I’m not clear how you are so vulnerable you can’t share a bus with an unmasked person but then you spend all day dealing with the public, some of whom won’t have masks!

Because on a full bus there might well not be anywhere to sit that is well away from a person not wearing a mask. When I've been out walking I've looked at buses and a good half of passengers don't wear masks. That will only get worse when schools go back.

At work it's very hard. I try to keep well away from customers whether they wear masks or not but quite a few need help packing bags and putting them in trolleys, or help sorting their money or using the chip and pin machine or they lean right around the security screen when they aren't meant to. A quarter of if has already come off completely agree a customer banged into it. So, I try my best to stay two metres away but it's frequently not possible. I've had people blow their nose and then immediately hand me money, yesterday a lady lent around the screen to hand me her money and had a coughing fit over me as I reached to take the notes.

@MMN123

Ah so you’re still shielding? I thought you were working now!

Depends on your role but one would hope most employers would try to move vulnerable folk into non customer facing roles if feasible.

But not all employers are created equal.

But this is why unions are so vital. I was horrified to find all those under 40 at work weren’t in the union. All the older folk were.

I'm not still shielding. Shielding was paused on 1st August so I'm now back at work and I am in s Union - they're useless. Everything I've fought for I've done myself, including an adapted chair which took them a year to get for me!!!

Ok so you’re extremely clinically vulnerable and your employer asked you to return on August first (or soon thereafter£, and you agreed to do so? So you are back at work by mutual agreement, rather than because you are legally required to be back?

Presumably when you agreed to go back you believed there would be adequate procedures to keep you safe. If there are not, you need to raise that formally. You may be able to return to furlough.

Ah presumably you weren’t working from home? In which case return to furlough not an option.

@Glitteryone

My friend has TN and wears a mask.

My family member has COPD and wears a mask.

I have asthma and wear a mask.

I think some of the excuses for not wearing a mask are just exactly that - an excuse.

Some people in these categories can wear masks. Others can't.

There are different levels of severity for these conditions.

My Dad is in a fairly advanced stage of COPD and is just out of hospital after suffering severe breathing difficulties. He cannot breathe in a face mask. He was forced to wear one when having to use hospital transport to get home and was really struggling again by the time they arrived with him. I know. Believe me, I have just spent a fortnight helping to look after him. It was and still is severe.

He is exempt. My sister printed out the sunflower badges for him and for our mother (who has just about recovered from severe pneumonia which almost killed her). Not that they are likely to be going many places anytime soon, but they do need them for the odd thing like hospital appointments etc.

COPD has four different levels. Don't judge just because you know one person with it who can wear a mask. My Dad can barely get up from his living room chair without struggling for breath. He is really rasping by the time he has moved anywhere else. He and others like him need their exemptions.

I don't think many people appreciate the fact that restricting people's movements, or requiring special items like masks, is actually a pretty extreme thing in the kind of western liberal democracy we have.

It's like when people were supposed to stay home. That can potentially be justified for a short time under extreme circumstances, but most western countries regard movement within the country as a basic right. The same with the right to congregate.

At the same time, no state can guarantee that everyone is "safe" from germs, or accidents, or whatever, whenever they go out. Life goes on but it's always less safe for the vulnerable than for others.

So no, it's not reasonable to say that people cannot go out if they can't wear a mask, and it's not reasonable to demand that somehow the government guarantees that people will not contract the virus, any more than it is reasonable to think a government can control the flu, or malaria. Some risk is always there and some are always more vulnerable.