About organ donation?

[hauntedvagina]

It's come to light recently that I have several family members who would not want to donate their organs when they die. However they would accept a donor organ if their life depended on it.

I'm a firm believer in organ donation, once I'm gone the doctors can help themselves to whatever they need. However I also believe that if you're not prepared to give, you shouldn't expect to receive. AIBU here?

On topic though I've said that they can have whatever they want. I'm done with them so they can crack on. I also donate blood whenever I'm able. I hope that if I ever needed either of these things I'd be able to get them.

I decided against after I saw the documentary about the "brain dead" danish teenager who they were going to harvest organs from, and then she woke up! I'm not convinced that they actually know when you're dead. It also seems that death is a process, so our methods of detecting death could be lacking

Which documentary was this? Generally there are several separate, independent testing processes to determine brain death, so it’s all but unheard of. I’d like to watch and see what the story was.

Some people may not agree with this.. My dad has said he doesn't want to donate his organs. My brothers and I have agreed that we would donate them regardless, he has never been religious, he wont know and he wont need them..
If my dad said this I would explain there is an opt-out system and would help him to do so in order that his wishes were fulfilled.

I think we should respect the opinions of others on this. If asked, I would consent to my sibling's organs being donated because I know that is their wish, even though I don't want to donate mine.

@SisyphusAndTheRockOfUntidiness

I wish there was a space on the organ donor opt in page where you could note any specific wishes. I don't wish to donate my reproductive organs. They can have anything else, for anyone. As it is, I can't specify this so I've had to be a lot more restrictive (although I am still going to donate if they want my organs).

Oh I thought you could? I've definitely had a form where it's listed organs and you ticked them if you were happy to donate that specific one. I think it was maybe when I signed up at the GP surgery although can't be sure.

*"But we made a mistake underway and made the family believe that their daughter and sister would die."

The hospital also acknowledged that medical staff should not have asked the question of organ donation as there were not clear signs that brain death would occur. In the release, the hospital said that they had implemented new guidelines to make sure that the conversation about organ donation would only occur if there were no more treatment options available and the patient's brain function had either ceased or was expected to cease in a short period of time*

So the hospitals statement suggests they discussed organ donation before the girl was diagnosed brain dead.

As I said normally there are several fail safes built into the diagnosis, and it sounds like during those tests they discovered she wasn’t, likely due to withdrawal of sedating and paralysing drugs.

But it appears she was never declared brain dead.

Mind your business- it’s lovely if you want to donate your organ (or allow the government to take because you didn’t opt out ) but no one owes anyone else an organ, no one has to give blood or be a bone marrow donor.

So if someone is genuinely uncomfortable with the idea that they’d be signing themselves up to be switched off hours after they are said to be ‘dead’, surrounded by strangers, at a time convenient to strangers rather than their own loved ones should the right circumstances occur, and so they decide not to donate, you think they also deserve to be denied life saving treatment should they need it?

Honestly, if you think like that, I’d question your own morals rather than theirs.

@SisyphusAndTheRockOfUntidiness

You can still register as an organ donor on the organ donation website and specify which organs you would be happy to donate. Reproductive organs aren't on this list: you have to give specific consent if you want to donate your reproductive organs, they aren't included in the opt out system.

This is from the government website about organ donation law:

5. Annex A: consent for rare transplants excluded from deemed consent
The list of organs and tissues below will continue to require express consent under the new system. This will mean that the potential donor (before their death), or their nominated representative or their family (after death), must explicitly give permission for the organs or tissues to be donated.

brain
spinal cord
face
nose
mouth
trachea (windpipe) - unless removed with the heart and lungs as part of a heart-lung transplantation, which is a routine transplant
arm
upper arm
forearm
hand
finger
leg
thigh
lower leg
foot
toe
ovary
uterus
penis
testicle
foetus
placenta
umbilical cord
vagina
labia
vulva
clitoris
cervix
fallopian tube(s)
prostate
perineum
embryo (inside the body)
limbal stem cells, renal epithelial cells, liver cells, and pancreatic cells – if they are used for an ATMP. These are medicinal therapies made from tissues, genes or cells manipulated in a laboratory
nervous tissue, artery, bone, muscle, tendon and skin – consent will be sought only if used as part of a rare transplant (above), but not a routine transplant in Annex B, unless they are part of a reproductive organ

This means that the new law allowing deemed consent for organ and tissue donation will not apply to these organs and tissues.

Of course they are hypocrites, and I'm sure if they (or their family members) were in need of an organ donation they would have no issues with it. Just like all the ones who refuse the flu jab but show up at the GP surgery as soon as they sneeze.

I have no issues with donating mine, not sure what I will do it with them once I'm dead.

If it was up to me people who are donors would go to the top of the list, before people who arent willing to give, if they need an organ.
Unfortunately thats not how it works.
Not sure how it is in the UK, bit where I live you have to sign up for a donor card, otherwise you are automatically not considered as a donor (unless your family decides otherwise). I think they shod change it around and have everyone considered a donor automatically. And if you dont want to be one, then you have to fill out paperwork.
I know lots of people who wouldnt mind donating, but when i ask them if they have a card all i hear is "ah no i havent gotten around to that yet."
I think many people just arent bothered.

Do people really want a health service where treatment is given on the basis of the patient's morality rather than clinical need?

It's a terrifying prospect

Not sure how it is in the UK, bit where I live you have to sign up for a donor card, otherwise you are automatically not considered as a donor (unless your family decides otherwise).
This was the system in the UK until May of this year. We now have an opt-out system so there is presumed consent unless you opt-out.

@hauntedvagina

It's come to light recently that I have several family members who would not want to donate their organs when they die. However they would accept a donor organ if their life depended on it.

I'm a firm believer in organ donation, once I'm gone the doctors can help themselves to whatever they need. However I also believe that if you're not prepared to give, you shouldn't expect to receive. AIBU here?

You can believe whatever you like. Medicine doesn't work that way. It's none of your business what someone does with their body. You do you, and they do them. Makes for a much easier time in life than being judgemental and nursing moral superiority to people and slagging them off on the internet to make yourself feel better.

@NailsNeedDoing

Well they expect someone else to do that so...

I have been an signed up to the organ donor register and to be a bone marrow doner since I have been old to do so in the UK.

I’m not allowed to donate blood in the UK, but I do donate for research and I was part of the illegal blood bank in October.

Preventing organs to those who refuse to be donors is difficult, of course to refuse to donate yet receive yourself is completely hypocritical. But are we really comfortable denying those people treatment?

@InDeoEstMeaFiducia not sure who I've slagged off, what a delightful phase that is. I expressed my opinion, others agree, others don't. There's no moral superiority here, I'm interested in hearing the opinions of others on the matter and some very valid points have been made.

I’ve opted out. Because I want to donate my entire body to science to help train and to experiment on. Which could save thousands of lives rather than a handful. Hardly selfish.

@SandysMam

I need a kidney!! It is the greatest possible gift anyone could ever give, and will literally transform my life and that of my small children (it is them I care about more then me). I also have seen rotting corpses (Work in a hospital) and I know that once you are dead, your organs do not last long anyway. But it is such a personal choice and while my heart breaks for all those waiting, my heart also breaks for all those making the decision at that time. I hope it would bring some peace to know that if I were to get someone’s loved ones kidney, I would be grateful every day of my life and try to pay that forward.

Wishing you the best of luck on your journey. I am 4 years post kidney transplant and I remember the awfulness of dialysis.

Keep strong and hold your little one tight. Good things will come, I am sure

As for the original question. Morally I agree that it's unfair but I also wouldn't want to deprive anyone of lifesaving treatment. The way the organ donation system works is on medical need which is really the only fair system.

You can't look at it in terms of willingness and worthiness, that's dystopian and disgraceful. Everyone has their reasons and the NHS is there to treat all - regardless of who they are and what they are like, which is as it should be.

I believe organs are a wonderful gift to give but the choice is individual so I opted out having previously been in favour, as did my parents. I despise presumption and felt a real lack of autonomy and lack of consideration for myself as a human being and my family with the "opt out" system. It's something we would all still discuss and consider should we find ourselves asked in that dread situation- in a very specific set of circumstances- but seeing someone destroyed by their husband no longer regarded as human, precious and worthy of respect by NHS staff has made me wish to put up barriers to protect me and mine from presumption. If I had children I would opt them out until they were old enough to decide too, despite being open to the possibility of donating.

I saw a close family friend and her children crumble after her husband was kept alive over the weekend and the "no hope, btw organs?" chat purposely had with her on a Monday when it better suited the hospital - after a weekend of being purposely left to hope a little. His now 21 year old son still has nightmares 9 years on and the word "harvest" still makes me - and his daughter - feel physically sick. I know lives depend on organs but lives have been further impacted by the asking for them, too.

I'd receive an organ without a pause for thought. We all would. The will to survive is inherently selfish but it doesn't mean people are or aren't selfish in themselves and medical treatment should have no bearing on this. I've just signed up as a bone marrow donor despite being terrified and I would give blood were it not so impossible to get it out of me (I've been told by nurses not to bother, I'm too much trouble).

Expecting a pasting so hiding this now.

Whats the illegal blood bank?

However I also believe that if you're not prepared to give, you shouldn't expect to receive. AIBU here?

Yabu, we should never start giving medical treatment based on moral values. That's a massively slippery slope.

[quote hauntedvagina]@InDeoEstMeaFiducia not sure who I've slagged off, what a delightful phase that is. I expressed my opinion, others agree, others don't. There's no moral superiority here, I'm interested in hearing the opinions of others on the matter and some very valid points have been made. [/quote]
Then why couch it using these relatives at all if you're just interested in the opinions of others: 'What is your opinion on organ donation? I firmly believe . . . ' rather than using your own family as a pretext towards gathering the opinions of others?

I agree with you, MrsTooth, but I have always been on the organ donation register and have donated blood regularly for most of my life.

I'd receive an organ without a pause for thought. We all would.

I don't agree, however, that this is true. My uncle needed a heart transplant. Having researched life after transplant and discussed it with his doctors, he opted not to have one. He died at the age of 55. Some people really wouldn't have an organ transplant.

I think bodily autonomy should be sacrosanct at every stage, including death, however, and consent (to any sort of procedure on your body) should never be presumed.

Absolutely it should be personal choice and treatment shouldn't be impacted by those choices. I've been on the donor list since I got my provisional licence but I find the idea repulsive (also blood transfusions) and don't think I could accept one even for my children's sake.

I also think people have no business overriding the wishes of the dead, whether that means letting organs be taken against the next of kin's own personal feelings or vice versa.

I’m sure there’d be outrage if a rule was brought in saying you can’t receive a blood transfusion unless you’re a blood donor!