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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

How many people have been failed by the NHS during lockdown?

629 replies

Polnm · 19/08/2020 00:14

My DH has cancer.

His appointment in April was by phone
His appointment in August was postponed until October

How is this acceptable? Hospitals are empty whilst patients can’t access care.

GP appointments by zoom with a 2 week wait for a basic blood pressure check in person or to take bloods

Why isn’t there more publicity and outrage about this?

We can’t be the only family going through this surely?

OP posts:
BovaryX · 20/08/2020 21:44

@Pomegranatepompom

I think it's appalling if patients in the UK are being failed by a dysfunctional, bloated bureaucracy which is defended with fanatical zeal by its employees. Have you actually read the personal accounts on this thread? It doesn't give you pause for thought? I am a Type 1 diabetic, diagnosed at 16. I have had more end user experience of health care than I would wish on anyone and I have been lucky enough to experience 90 percent of my treatment outside the UK. In a condition like Type 1 diabetes, rigorous testing is imperative. No doubt that is true for other medical conditions. Do you understand that? Do you understand that irrespective of modern technology, there are certain monitoring tests which are A) critical and B) can only be performed by a medical professional? The religious fanaticism around the NHS is enabling and justifying third rate service.

To be honest? I think your comments are part of the cliched BS which justifies and perpetuates the failed status quo. Where is the media outrage about this?

NurseButtercup · 20/08/2020 21:55

@BovaryX
To be honest? I think your comments are part of the cliched BS which justifies and perpetuates the failed status quo. Where is the media outrage about this?

Have you written to the various media outlets, offering your critique of the NHS and posing this question to them?

Pomegranatepompom · 20/08/2020 21:58

Don’t be so patronising.
Any points in your post which should be considered are drowned by the ranting.

I’m truly sorry for anyone who had not received appropriate care but treatment was not stopped in every trust as some pp have mentioned.

Not directed to you, but I’m not sure how restrictions on buses prove my speciality isn’t running as normal 🤔 our work did not stop because it couldn’t. Other teams would have made risk assessments and adjusted accordingly.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 20/08/2020 22:01

[quote NurseButtercup]**@BovaryX
To be honest? I think your comments are part of the cliched BS which justifies and perpetuates the failed status quo. Where is the media outrage about this?

Have you written to the various media outlets, offering your critique of the NHS and posing this question to them?[/quote]
But Bovary has a point - patients are being put at risk and seriously let down. How many patients have been lost to follow up as a result of lockdown? Is anyone looking at it, being a safety net?

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 20/08/2020 22:03

@Pomegranatepompom

Don’t be so patronising. Any points in your post which should be considered are drowned by the ranting.

I’m truly sorry for anyone who had not received appropriate care but treatment was not stopped in every trust as some pp have mentioned.

Not directed to you, but I’m not sure how restrictions on buses prove my speciality isn’t running as normal 🤔 our work did not stop because it couldn’t. Other teams would have made risk assessments and adjusted accordingly.

How are they coming out of it though? Are the safeguards to stop people being lost to follow up?
Pomegranatepompom · 20/08/2020 22:07

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras none of my patients are lost to FU because we have correct procedures in place and a joint email and telephone which is checked 4 times a day. Queries are responded to within 48 hours.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 20/08/2020 22:09

[quote Pomegranatepompom]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras none of my patients are lost to FU because we have correct procedures in place and a joint email and telephone which is checked 4 times a day. Queries are responded to within 48 hours.[/quote]
But what about other departments and hospitals across the NHS? Your department seems to have performed well but clearly others haven't. For those of us trapped in the no appointment, no contact nightmare this is really scary. It literally is impenetrable.

Oliversmumsarmy · 20/08/2020 22:14

jacks11

As I have said before. If you were a new cancer patient then everything went ahead as it should.

The problem lies in the people who were already in the system and needed scans and blood tests to monitor if cancer has returned.

These stopped and in dp’s case even when it all resumed they keep losing his blood tests.

Even now there doesn’t seem to be any urgency and he doesn’t know if he goes for a 4th blood test there is no guarantee they won’t lose that test as well.

By the time he gets his blood test through they are going to say the scan needs doing again as it is out of date.

Waspnest · 20/08/2020 22:26

By the time he gets his blood test through they are going to say the scan needs doing again as it is out of date.

Thankfully my DH doesn't have cancer but he does suffer from kidney stones. In the last few years he has gone through the whole 'get a scan to look for stones - get an appointment to discuss scan results with consultant for 3+ months later - see consultant who says the scan will be out of date so arrange for another scan in 3+ months...' repeat ad nauseum. After the last letter in May saying his appointment was being delayed until October he rang to ask to be taken off the list, when it flares up again he'll go back to his GP and go private. This must all waste so much money in the NHS.

canigooutyet · 20/08/2020 22:30

People within the nhs are posting to say erm no it's business as usual (aside from dentists), yet patients are saying no they bloody well aren't. If it was government directive, all these departments would be closed.

Who do I hold accountable that the local trust have closed their renal department yet the next trust is seeing patients?

If government policy said no to these things, no trust would be doing them. Just like schools who cannot make things up as they go along, although at least there is transparency about the issues of the schools closed. Where is that same transparency?

Try and lay the blame solely on the shoulders of the government all you want, but by not writing letters and talking about it publicly, doing what you can from within, you are complacent in this. At least school staff are talking about the problems faced in secondary especially, where is this from NHS about these departments. You know how vital these clinics are at giving patients quality of live and prevention of additional health issues.

Sod suggesting we as patients getting vocal, how about you guys start doing it rather than posing for pictures to post over SM. How far as patients are we going to get when NHS will be saying erm, not sure how, it's all back to normal here.

jacks11 · 20/08/2020 22:49

@BovaryX

The NHS has failings. God knows, I work with them daily! A LOT is related to funding, rota gaps, and quite frequently being used as a political football with periodic meddling for positive spin. There is the issue of politicians promising the NHS can be all things to all people, can provide better/faster care with less funding and fewer staff. There are issues related to lack of preventative medicine.

I know the NHS is not perfect, but as we spend less per head of the population on healthcare; have fewer HCP per patient; fewer hospital beds per head of the population; fewer laboratories and do lower baseline levels of capacity for testing of all kinds; less diagnostic equipment per patient, and so on, than many developed nations, it is only to be expected that waiting times are longer and outcomes are poorer in some countries. I’m not wedded to the current funding model bring the only way, but other ways do have their issues too (I have worked in both Germany and Australia, the latter for a relatively short period of time, admittedly).

FWIW I found the “clap for the NHS” unnecessary- especially every week.

With regards COVID, there are many things the NHS should have done differently. There were clear warnings/areas of weakness shown when the simulated pandemic” was run a few years ago. Those areas were not addressed at a national level or at a regional one. PPE and the “just in case” contracts we had with Chinese firms was just the tip of the iceberg. Don’t lay those failures the door of the workforce. That was a political/dept of health decision, as was the failure to implement changes to address the issues raised by the simulation.

Another issue was that the UK very clearly an issue with the fact that we had a SARS plan- one which very closely copied and successfully implanted by Singapore- but did not implement it initially. For as yet unclear reasons, the powers that be initially implemented the influenza pandemic plans, belatedly switching to a plan which had only a semblance to the official SARS plan. This meant that everything related to Covid was rushed. GP’s surgeries were given less than 24 hours notice of the sudden change to the locked door policy, for instance.

When you take into consideration that many areas (mental health, for instance) are underfunded, when many specialties or areas do not have a full complement of staff (whether that is medical, nursing, allied health professions, cleaners, admin or laboratory staff) with waiting lists extending even before Covid due to some of these problems- it seems more remarkable to me that more people do not fall through the cracks.

When you put a system into chaos, it is hardly surprising that things don’t always run smoothly. The NHS has been required to run 3 parallel services within the same hospital, further stretching staffing and reducing the number of beds.theatres etc. That was a decision taken at a national level, not by individual clinicians like myself. I am actually working more hours than usual. The last few months have been the busiest and toughest I can remember. Many of our staff have been significantly affected by what they’ve dealt with and some are on their knees (leave having been cancelled initially and still not caught up).

None of this is a defence for individual malpractice, local inefficiencies or failures. Nor is it an excuse for cases of poor care- for those affected it is unacceptable- but i hope that it may be (part of) an explanation. Which is what I was actually trying to explain- it is obviously far from acceptable that cancer treatments are not being carried out in some areas, or that patients such as hearhooves has been deemed an urgent case but has still not been seen. Though in the latter case perhaps it’s less of a systemic issue and a local failure, I can’t say- but it is inevitable that a system already under strain, thrown into chaos by the pandemic, has not delivered well for all patients.

If we don’t understand where the problems are and why (and very little is due to sheer laziness IMHO), then how can we even begin to address them? But, equally, let’s not pretend that there are not good things about the NHS and many patients who do receive excellent care.

jacks11 · 20/08/2020 22:52

Implanted= implemented

Oliversmumsarmy · 20/08/2020 23:06

This is an extreme example of one of the NHS departments that Ds and I have experienced.
This isn’t anything to do with Covid this was a few years ago.

Ds when he was younger (under a Labour government for those that just want to blame all ills on the Tories) we suspected he might be ADHD.
Dr referred us onto someone who supposedly would be able to diagnose.

When the letter for our appointment arrived it said (as an example) that our appoint was on 17th July.

The letter then said it had been dictated on the 16th July, it had been sent down to typing on the 25th July.
It was then sent to the post room on the 30th July and posted on 4th August.

We received the appointment a few days later.
I phoned up having completely missed the appointment and made a comment about why bother dictating a letter that would stand little hope in any patient attending, let alone those people who put the appointment down on paper not looking at what they were doing or the waste of money sending a letter for an appointment that had been weeks before..
I was told that was the way they did things

I got an appointment by phone and arrived on the day to a notice on reception that nearly 15,000 people had missed their appointments the previous month In that department and missed appointments cost money

Surely someone somewhere must have thought it was a waste of time

As I said I popped in to the department quite recently (pre Covid) and the exact figures might be not exactly the same but weren't that different that suggested someone had taken notice of my complaint.

Also when we got called for our appointment we had to go up in a lift.

The dr was standing at the lifts and he made a negative diagnosis immediately and berated us on having missed our appointment then sent on our way.

Ds was diagnosed at college with ADHD.

Unfortunately too little too late.

elenacampana · 20/08/2020 23:11

I’d give you a standing ovation for that @jacks11.

You’ve excellently explained why the NHS is not to blame. Its failings are caused by decisions made in government.

I’d personally like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for getting up and going out to work every day. I have friends who have worked in the hospital throughout the pandemic and I can see the toll it’s taken on them. Just living through this has been bad enough for me, living with it for hours upon hours each day must have been something else entirely.

Thank you for all you do.

colouringindoors · 20/08/2020 23:44

@Gingercat86 so very sorry to hear about your dad.

Serin · 21/08/2020 00:54

I said on here at the beginning of covid that I had had enough of working in the NHS after 30years, but would stand my ground and work through the pandemic.
A poster said "thank you" to me and it made such a massive difference.
I carried on working, caught covid off a patient, got back to work and carried on despite feeling exhausted. I'm meant to finish at 4.30pm, I work at least an extra 2 hours (unpaod) every night as I have a case load and cant hand over like the nurses do.
I have seen some GP colleagues sit back and do bugger all and others work their asses off.
I have seen Out patient clinics close (physio esp) and community teams, already at full capacity, pick up the slack.
I have been called unspeakable things including "a cunt" by families who are at the end of their tether because they want more than I can provide, but ultimately I have not made these rules and I fight the decisions that impact on patient care.
I'm on holiday this week. I've spent 3 hours on my laptop today doing mandatory training as there is no other time to do it.
I have had enough and honestly every single one of my colleagues feels the same.
If the govt want rid of the NHS they are doing a great job of destroying it.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 21/08/2020 01:34

[quote jacks11]@BovaryX

The NHS has failings. God knows, I work with them daily! A LOT is related to funding, rota gaps, and quite frequently being used as a political football with periodic meddling for positive spin. There is the issue of politicians promising the NHS can be all things to all people, can provide better/faster care with less funding and fewer staff. There are issues related to lack of preventative medicine.

I know the NHS is not perfect, but as we spend less per head of the population on healthcare; have fewer HCP per patient; fewer hospital beds per head of the population; fewer laboratories and do lower baseline levels of capacity for testing of all kinds; less diagnostic equipment per patient, and so on, than many developed nations, it is only to be expected that waiting times are longer and outcomes are poorer in some countries. I’m not wedded to the current funding model bring the only way, but other ways do have their issues too (I have worked in both Germany and Australia, the latter for a relatively short period of time, admittedly).

FWIW I found the “clap for the NHS” unnecessary- especially every week.

With regards COVID, there are many things the NHS should have done differently. There were clear warnings/areas of weakness shown when the simulated pandemic” was run a few years ago. Those areas were not addressed at a national level or at a regional one. PPE and the “just in case” contracts we had with Chinese firms was just the tip of the iceberg. Don’t lay those failures the door of the workforce. That was a political/dept of health decision, as was the failure to implement changes to address the issues raised by the simulation.

Another issue was that the UK very clearly an issue with the fact that we had a SARS plan- one which very closely copied and successfully implanted by Singapore- but did not implement it initially. For as yet unclear reasons, the powers that be initially implemented the influenza pandemic plans, belatedly switching to a plan which had only a semblance to the official SARS plan. This meant that everything related to Covid was rushed. GP’s surgeries were given less than 24 hours notice of the sudden change to the locked door policy, for instance.

When you take into consideration that many areas (mental health, for instance) are underfunded, when many specialties or areas do not have a full complement of staff (whether that is medical, nursing, allied health professions, cleaners, admin or laboratory staff) with waiting lists extending even before Covid due to some of these problems- it seems more remarkable to me that more people do not fall through the cracks.

When you put a system into chaos, it is hardly surprising that things don’t always run smoothly. The NHS has been required to run 3 parallel services within the same hospital, further stretching staffing and reducing the number of beds.theatres etc. That was a decision taken at a national level, not by individual clinicians like myself. I am actually working more hours than usual. The last few months have been the busiest and toughest I can remember. Many of our staff have been significantly affected by what they’ve dealt with and some are on their knees (leave having been cancelled initially and still not caught up).

None of this is a defence for individual malpractice, local inefficiencies or failures. Nor is it an excuse for cases of poor care- for those affected it is unacceptable- but i hope that it may be (part of) an explanation. Which is what I was actually trying to explain- it is obviously far from acceptable that cancer treatments are not being carried out in some areas, or that patients such as hearhooves has been deemed an urgent case but has still not been seen. Though in the latter case perhaps it’s less of a systemic issue and a local failure, I can’t say- but it is inevitable that a system already under strain, thrown into chaos by the pandemic, has not delivered well for all patients.

If we don’t understand where the problems are and why (and very little is due to sheer laziness IMHO), then how can we even begin to address them? But, equally, let’s not pretend that there are not good things about the NHS and many patients who do receive excellent care.[/quote]
I am not unsympathetic to what the nurses and drs have been through. I still have friends in the NHS - I know what's gone on but as ever, the biggest issue is with the NHS refusing to accept responsibility for what's gone wrong, like multiple cancelled appointments not being re booked or the inability to realise that asking patients to observe clinical features and then describe them accurately over the phone is not without grave risk.

I am totally sympathetic to pressures that clinicians are under - I suffered a serious injury due to a complication during a procedure. In my view it was a recognised potential complication, it wasn't due to negligence, it was compounded and probably caused by another condition I have. The Dr blames himself but I never have and ice repeatedly told him that. There wasn't anything he did wrong, it just happened.

Now though, not having a system in place to stop patients getting lost to follow up, not even having staff to respond to patients who flag up forgotten appointments, not being able to assess urgent patients - that isn't an uncharacteristic error, that's a system failure and people should be held accountable.

JanMeyer · 21/08/2020 01:49

Now though, not having a system in place to stop patients getting lost to follow up, not even having staff to respond to patients who flag up forgotten appointments, not being able to assess urgent patients - that isn't an uncharacteristic error, that's a system failure and people should be held accountable.

Especially if they aren't actually accepting referrals at the moment or seeing anyone. If they're not doing that then surely the least they could do is communicate with the people who are on the waiting list. Because if they're not seeing patients and they're not spending anytime contacting patients to keep them informed, just what are they doing?

And as for the "well things are up and running in my trust" and the "we're just following government guidelines" comments, what part of the government guidelines tells some trusts to start seeing people again and others not to? Because it's really fucking annoying to be honest when you live in an area where there isn't a high number of Covid cases, yet services still aren't running.

PrivateD00r · 21/08/2020 07:28

@FluffyKittensinabasket

I’m pregnant and I won’t see a midwife face to face until week 24. I appreciate that isn’t as bad as most of the stories here. But I do think more mothers and babies will die from lack of midwifery care.
This is quite unfair. The only appointment you are missing is at 16 weeks which is really a discussion around suggested vaccinations, what to expect regarding fetal movement, diet, etc. This information will also have been given at booking anyway. You will have received lots of verbal and written information at booking. You will have had your bloods, urine and BP checked and any pre-existing issues picked up and treated. You will have had both a booking and anomaly scan to check on your baby.

I honestly cannot think of one single pregnancy complication that might kill a mother or baby due to missing out on the 16 week appointment.

The only change in the service that very much concerned me was the shift from doing GTT's to doing an HBA1c instead but thankfully it was quickly recognised that it was inferior and so the GTT was reinstated. The change was made to prevent women from having to sit in a hospital for 2 hours.

Otherwise, maternity services have continued and are busier than ever.

user1497207191 · 21/08/2020 07:55

@JanMeyer

Now though, not having a system in place to stop patients getting lost to follow up, not even having staff to respond to patients who flag up forgotten appointments, not being able to assess urgent patients - that isn't an uncharacteristic error, that's a system failure and people should be held accountable.

Especially if they aren't actually accepting referrals at the moment or seeing anyone. If they're not doing that then surely the least they could do is communicate with the people who are on the waiting list. Because if they're not seeing patients and they're not spending anytime contacting patients to keep them informed, just what are they doing?

And as for the "well things are up and running in my trust" and the "we're just following government guidelines" comments, what part of the government guidelines tells some trusts to start seeing people again and others not to? Because it's really fucking annoying to be honest when you live in an area where there isn't a high number of Covid cases, yet services still aren't running.

Fully agree. The lack of contactability and messages ignored re my OH's cancelled cancer treatment was inexcusable. Not just a few days, weeks turned into months, couldn't book essential monthly blood tests, impossible to talk to anyone, impossible to get advice re complications etc. GP surgery was useless as they just kept telling us to contact oncology or if we were really worried to got to A&E! They didn't give a shit and wouldn't even do the usual monthly blood tests that they usually do! When oncology finally opened again, it was like going back to the start as they seemed to have no history of when treatment stopped and they even assumed a different monthly infusion he has had carried on as normal - yet it was done by them and they should have known they'd cancelled it!

The NHS admin/management is poor at the best of times but covid has highlighted what a fiasco it is.

If OH hadn't pestered them, I doubt they'd have contacted him at all - it's been a real struggle, multiple calls, etc., to get even the basics started again like blood tests. I wonder how many people have been forgotten by the nhs who aren't as forceful and could be waiting for months for NHS to remember them?

Pomegranatepompom · 21/08/2020 08:17

It’s absolutely disgraceful that people don’t have adequate follow up in place. I’m my service, clinical staff make the arrangements, we don’t have adequate admin support unfortunately.
Electronic systems help with all the things the pp described re history and treatment plans. We starting using EPIC last year which was very costly - I guess this is why some trusts can’t afford it. I do feel admin needed an overall tbh. I constantly chase up appointments abs results to ensure correct care in place, it’s probably a bit easier for us, our patients numbers are 100 ish per week.

Rinoachicken · 21/08/2020 09:04

My mum is a scrub nurse, she works in the private clinic of a major general hospital. The general NHS part has requested use of the private clinic facilities to try and clear some backlog - all fine, provosts clinic said yep, send over your patients we’ll be happy to help, except they don’t want to use the private clinic nurses, they want to use the NHS nurses (because they have had little to do apparently). The private nurses are just as experienced and competent, been doing all the same operations, but never mind. So they send them over, but the private clinic uses slightly different spec of equipment, and the NHS nurses don’t like it/know how to use it/want to use it, so the NHS hospital insists on sending over all its equipment as well, which means the province clinic stuff has to be stored to make space.

So now the private clinic staff have nothing to do, and you have NHS nurses running backwards and forwards across the hospital to do an operation in the NHS wing or the clinic wing.

This is bonkers! Just send patients to whatever clinic has space and let the private clinic use their own nurses and equipment - then you would double your theatre capacity instead of just spreading your NHS capacity across two locations!!

How is this even remotely efficient??!!

From what she’s told me, the private clinic are just totally gobsmacked at the ridiculous attitudes and bureaucracy

Pomegranatepompom · 21/08/2020 09:07

It’s not unreasonable to want to use equipment you are experienced with. However, I agree could have used the private nurses instead.

Harderlife · 21/08/2020 09:10

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the user's request.

canigooutyet · 21/08/2020 09:29

Other public sectors have the same issues with underfunding, staff overworked etc. Difference is they are talking about the issues they faced during the lockdown, they are talking about the impending difficulties, NHS staff are silent unless they are posting pics/vids on sm of themselves dancing, oh look at us in mask, or look at us social distancing etc.

When I've been in hospital and there was a shortage of staff, they weren't standing around doing that stuff. They were knackered, staff reshuffled from other wards during lunch to allow them a break.

Anyone who has dealt with nhs knows cancellations happen. I'm fine with this as these things do happen. What I am not fine with is getting ignored because well government said this, that and the other when clearly this isn't the case as they would be all shut. If it was government policy for gp's to have their doors closed they would all be closed.
'
I'm in touch btw with my local mp, have been since before CV about nhs, they are trying to get to the bottom of why departments aren't open as they should be. They are still waiting for a response, same with my gp, mh services and a couple of my consultants who I can see/contact.

If it was down to policy then the consultants we all talk to would be
explaining this not trying to get patients appointments. Yet many posters consultants are trying to get these appointments from often within the same building.

We know about the health postcode lottery, it's been publicly talked about for decades, even nhs talk about it.

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