AIBU to give money to the ladies who literally lie flat on their faces in the street?

[pa1oma]

I was wondering if I could ask people’s opinions on something please? ... In recent weeks / months when I’m out and about shopping, I’m seeing noticeably more of the (mainly Iranian, I think) ladies who lie on their face in the street, wailing and begging for money. For instance, in Kensington there was another one today and several down Champs Elysees as well as Hammersmith last week and it’s very distressing, but DH says not to give them anything because neither them or their children will see any of it. He says they are being put out their by a gang leader who uses these women and sends them out to beg because they are more likely to get money than a man who is begging. What do people think and do you give money to these women? I’m never sure what to do.

I've seen this whenever I've traveled to London. Never seen women with babies / toddlers though. I would find that very distressing, poor children.

Don’t give them money but this is a huge problem involving people trafficking and gangs. It’s a problem across Europe and yes kids are drugged and given alcohol to keep them quiet. Horrible.

Any money given to this type of beggar is supporting organised crime. If you walk down Oxford Street after about 9 pm you'll see wheelchairs chained to lampposts near Marble Arch. The beggers arrive on foot in the morning, unlock them and hop in for their day's work. Disgusting.

Hi thanks for all the responses and I do think you’re all right. It’s so tragic, but you can’t really give money to these women.

As for being in Paris and Hammersmith in the same week, well yes, because I went to Paris (returned well before the quarantine obviously) and I live in West London.

In terms of Hammersmith particularly, there are the well-known characters such as the man who “plays” the traffic cone (he’s also sometimes in Leicester Square if anyone has seen him) and the main who dances endlessly at the entrance to the tube. But the women lying flat in their faces on the pavement is a fairly newish and escalating form of begging there, I think. My kids go to school that way and it’s like running the gauntlet trying to get down the high street sometimes. On top of this, there are a group of British / Irish at the side entrance to the station who are blatantly injecting themselves in full view of everyone and they can be quite volatile and intimidating.. I don’t know what the answers are, but it just seems to be getting worse in so many ways. Richmond is another town where I’ve definitely noticed there’s a lot more begging / homeless (of all sorts of types) in evidence recently. In both Kensington and Richmond, they sit outside somewhere like the Wholefoods and where there is a cashpoint as well.

I did have an interaction in Richmond a few weeks ago because there was a woman sitting on the ground in the middle of the pedestrianised bit by the Wholefoods there and she was sketching but also had a sign saying, “homeless please help.” I was waiting for my DS to come out the shop and I saw a man go striding up to her and tell her what she was doing is illegal and to clear off. He was really shouting at her and then stood over her while he called the police, loudly so everyone could hear. Myself and an elderly lady did tell the man to back off and we have the woman some money as it was just so horrible.

The very worst examples of this I recall were in India where small children are dodging between vehicles stop at traffic lights begging, once the traffic moves off they're in dire danger and the Indian drivers don't seem too bothered about clipping them.

A man local to us makes his living from begging and does really well (he's good friends with our friends). He has a council flat, a missus and kids and earns £100+ a day as it only takes twenty people to hand the poor unfortunate soul a fiver each.

Speaking as a person with eyes - I find it hard to believe anyone can make that much money by begging.

Yes, I know this will attract a whole lot more of you people who want to tell me about beggars driving around in sports cars and holidaying in Maui. But honestly.... I find it far more plausible that some random anonymous MN user is lying, or exaggerating, or mistaken, or trolling. THAT happens all the time, but I've never seen a beggar driving off in their conveniently parked shiny new Audi in full view of the people they're trying to fleece, and I don't know anyone IRL who has either.

I'm not saying give them money. I don't do that generally, because I don't think it helps. But don't walk around in your spiteful, judgemental little bubble telling yourself they're all living the life of Riley.

[https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsofhomelesspeopleinenglandandwales/2018]

[https://www.crisis.org.uk/about-us/latest-news/new-research-reveals-the-scale-of-violence-against-rough-sleepers/]

There was a TV show about these gangs a while ago. The controllers live in huge houses in their own country (Romania in that case) and the beggars are shipped over in their hundreds and distributed around big cities. They work in shifts, share disability aids and in some cases drugged children 😡😭. Its disgusting.
I don't give them money.
They also were monopolising The Big Issue in my city until the office got wise. One or two people were officially allowed to buy the magazines, they then were distributing them to others who were not. They were clearing out the office of magazines which was unfair on the people who were officially badged and relied on this money each day.
Its ruthless and dishonest and should not be happening.
They use their own poor and vulnerable to make them rich. 😡

A friend of ours had previously fallen on hard times (came to UK to work in construction, cost of living was high, ended up.living in a park about 10 years ago but now doing ok)

The Manna Centre in Mellor Street, London (SE1) is a good charity to donate if you want to help people in genuine need in London

Friend said they provided hot drinks, meal, shower, clean clothing & friendly support. He recently asked me to.help show him how to donate some money to them online. He now has a s/e job, lives in a shared house, paying tax & N I.

Some people are only 1month away from getting into living in the streets and there are some genuine cases but they don't tend to beg for money.

Www.mannasociety.org.uk

@JesusInTheCabbageVan I’ve heard that trope about professional beggars earning £££ a day or people having full benefits but still begging because they enjoy the lifestyle from a public service worker and a police officer and I just refuse to believe it.

Anyone who sits on a filthy pavement day in, day out, or walks through train carriages begging from mostly indifferent people, regardless of where they go to at the end of the day, isn’t doing it because it’s easy money.

The difference some people are missing on this thread is the conversation about the very organised types generally doing it under the control of organised gangs, who have places to live, food to eat and income from the work they do and genuinely street homeless/destitute people.

I won’t give money to the first but I will to the second because the need is genuine and not everyone can or wants to access the help offered by charities. Sometimes the charities themselves are not interested.

I’ve called streetlink countless times for people who were sleeping in doorways to be told they weren’t genuinely homeless but engaging in ‘street activity’ which wasn’t Streetlink’s concern.

At one stage I was asked to photograph the people I was reporting during the night to prove they were actually sleeping there all night!

Having spoken to a couple of homeless people, Streetlink were also well known for working with the home office and a lot of non U.K. people would be visited and very firmly told the options for help were agree to go back to where they came from or be forcibly deported. Many would therefore deny to streetworkers that they were homeless and instead say they were just begging for extra cash.
Maybe that’s where this story about beggars being secretly minted comes from.

Without the money given to them on the street these people had no other option to feed or shelter themselves.

When I lived it Italy, the begging from the Roma was very prevalent in the big cities. I was warned by many not to fund the criminal gangs. There were disfigured women with disfigured/heavily drugged dirty babies, and children coming right up to you begging in cafes, McDonalds, train stations, etc. Very upsetting - especially when children are involved...

I worked in a busy city centre, we had people doing that who we knew had accommodation and also ones that as soon as they were handed money (often women handing over £20 notes to women begging) would go and buy drugs.

People brought them so much food as well!
The city has really good provisions for homeless people so I really lost a lot of sympathy for those begging after seeing all that, which is sad really because I do think there are people out there who need genuine help

I used to watch the vans arrive and deposit the beggars around 7:15am on New Oxford Street. They would have coffee, breakfast and a cigarette at the outside tables of the numerous cafes there before changing into dirty gear and setting off into the west end. Very organised and must pay well too.

I once saw a man begging in London with a raw chicken on his head flopping around

Just to make something clear:

If anyone thinks that identifying a particular begging group as Roma, means all or most Roma beg, or live a particular lifestyle, are just being stupid, and racist.
Roma people come in all shapes and sizes and different social levels just like all races and nationalities.

There are millions of Roma, and the vast majority don't beg, deceive or thieve, and live socially normal lives, just as there are millions of people living on council estates and the vast majority obviously aren't involved in drugs or burglary, county lines or cuckooing and have socially normal lives.

A small portion from both groups are highly visible, and these days their enterprises often end up being overtaken and organised by criminals, (sometimes cooperatively, sometimes coerced and threatened, and it can start as the one and end as the other.)
It gets used as an excuse for racism or prejudice against every one else from those groups by those who wish to.

There are also individual Roma who find themselves homeless and without work, as well as many homeless East Europeans generally.

It's the same as the difference between homeless or sofa surfing people with their own very much loved looked after dog trying to survive on the streets, and shiny big dogs being hired out for use as a begging tool. (can also involve coercion of owner) It can be hard to tell which is which if you don't get to know them.

People who are homeless and people who beg aren’t a homogeneous mass. It’s not restricted to one nationality

There’s multiple reasons why people beg most commonly mental health, being a care leaver, ex-forces, no recourse to public funds. Also there are OCG who coerce individuals into begging. Modern slavery manifests through begging, street crime as people are treated like commodities. Tasked to make money. Truly horrific

There are numerous charities who do work with this group.
You can make a referral to streetlink

Links for services in Scotland

Services such is outreach, The police do regular walk by on patrol,they know where the activity,the pattern and location

I’ve seen them down an alley off High Holborn at about 7.30am being given instructions for the day from their gang master. They then disperse and spend the day begging outside Sainsburys and the Rosewood.

Seen a queue of those women, and others from the same place selling nick backs, giving their takings over to some utter scumbag, quite openly collecting from them on Croydon High Street

Nick nacks even

itsaquidstella Five years ago locals set out to help a Crouch End Big Issue seller (and her BI seller partner) and it hit the press, and the Waitrose pitch has been a magnet for any pregnant beggars (as opposed to BI sellers) ever since.

The original BI seller grew up knowing (Roma) 'boyfriend to be' in Romania, came here to do cleaning, as a family/friendship group (where the men are supposed to be protecting the women) living in Tottenham Hale. Ended up getting 'together' with him over here, and ended up in trouble. People wanted to help and the press got in on it.
They and the Highgate BI seller, are Romanian Roma living here trying to better their lives as EU citzens, with BI selling allowing them to learn SE skills, improve their English and try and make a transition to less precarious lives here .

When they came, the 'trafficking' was 'agencies' bringing them here to work as cleaners, laborers, and farm workers, but charging high rents for overfull accommodation, and high agency fees and disowning them if/when unusable.
As Roma, getting work without agencies/organizers is difficult, and they're vulnerable to exploitation from all sides.

Changer nearer Xmas Croydon always has loads of blokes selling perfume from bags in Croydon. I can't understand why people buy it. Well I can - it's cheaper than the perfume shops/boots/superdrug etc that are barely 10 feet away. I wish people would just STOP buying goods from a bloke in the street selling from a carrier bag (and from somewhere bloke down the pub). Surely people must realise this isn't legit.

Give to charities who look after the homeless, not to street beggars.

I lived in Romania and the begging mafia was ruthless. They'd drug a child to be permanently asleep (worked out kids attracted more cash, but better asleep) and the "mother" would be changed in shifts. The police knew. The media too. Plenty of sad stories about kids being maimed to increase their street begging appeal.

Again, give to the Shelter or other reputable charities.

Wonder if the German speaking student type who has just missed her plane and needs a few pounds to get next plane back home outside the airport has managed it yet.
Been there for around 5 years.

"women will often get £1-2k in an hour if they are near a mosque / Islamic centre and time their shift well. During Eid I have seen beggers being given £100 a time!"

They often get 2k an hour? Wowzers, thanks for the heads up. Off out to wail for a bit

nc600 even if that's true about the amount of money those women get I seriously doubt they get to keep any. They will have to hand it over to their boss (or pimp essentially).
I do worry what happens to these women if they don't 'earn' enough in their day.

If you travel around rural Romania, The countryside around Timisoara and across transylvania you will see plenty of these Roma houses. They are just as ornate on the inside as the outside and are vastly different than an Romanian house. Every time you give to a Roma begger the money will be going back to the gangmaster to fund theses houses not to pay for milk for the baby in the woman’s arms or medical treatment for the disabled man.
These are photos off the web but I have been to Romania and seen these sights myself. It is a beautiful country with a lot of offer but these Roma palaces are everywhere mostly built on the proceeds to crime in Western Europe.