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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think there’s actually so much wisdom in the bible

228 replies

Lardlizard · 14/08/2020 21:57

I can see why it’s so popular
Almost like an early age self help book in some ways
Also hymns

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Lardlizard · 24/08/2020 18:00

Exile that’s lovely

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Pepperwort · 25/08/2020 21:57

serenada that is exactly what I object to about religious practices.

@Lifeisgenerallyfun I can’t imagine a pantheistic Christianity, I’ve been trying. It sounds like a contradiction in terms. It is natural for ideas to converge, develop, change, diverge, etc etc and I quite like the idea of a multiplicity of gods and goddesses re-emerging, or different symbolic paths. Although it would beg the question of what on Earth were all the tortures and appalling deaths of the past for, and how they could be stopped again. Women’s rights are never secured in any system.

Lifeisgenerallyfun · 26/08/2020 17:10

@Pepperwort -well I suppose it would depend on your definition of Christianity and the definition of God and Christ. If you limited the definition to that given by the rules of the Latin church then yes it has been deemed heresy. However, if you took the broader approach a Christian could be anyone who follows Christ.

Therefore one would therefore have to examine the concept of Christ. Nowadays we think of Christ as a man, the flesh and blood son of God. But many of what we now call the Gnostics believed Christ was a spiritual concept. The Gospels Anthropomorphised the spiritual essence to make stories which were easy to relate to and pass on through oral tradition.

If Christ isn’t a person When you look at the Gospels what is the point of the stories? My own personal view is they are stories to embrace and encourage change. The first miracle (or indeed alchemical success) is the transmutation of water into wine, we see death being overcome, mastery of the elements (walking on water). The slaughter of innocents by Herod matched the slaughter of the first born by pharaoh. It was a call to arms, to change the status quo, to transmute slavery to freedom. A new covenant, a new type of God (following gnostic duslism)Obviously the criticism of the Romans is most noticeable in Johns Revelations but it runs throughout the Bible. The call to change, the reward for change as a central theme to the rest is hard to ignore once noticed. Christ was effectively what we would later recognise as a spiritual philosophers stone. The flesh and blood Christ (if he did exist) was most likely a man like Brian (although I have no idea if he was a very naughty boy😂).

If we take Christ as a spiritual concept then there would be no need to see God in a purely theistic sense. If we take aesthetic pantheism out of the equation for a second then why can’t God be in everything, with God reflecting all matter and all matter reflecting God? We are made in Gods image according to Christians, if God is the creator then a bit of Him would lie in all his creations and all his creations would be part of Him. It’s probably better explained by the concept in the Kabbalah of sparks of light. In every particle of matter lies a spark of the divine.

Once we separate the spirituality of God and Christ from the myth stories surrounding them it is possible for a pantheistic Christianity to exist.

Why have so many died? Misappropriation And misunderstanding of Christ and God. How do we stop it happening again? Education, encouraging critical thought, stop people following gods (especially the secular gods like money, celebrity etc). Stop encouraging divisions, yes diversity policies, cultural appropriation I’m looking at you. I believe the answer lies in true esotericism (not internalised exotercism which is often sold as esotericism under the guiding light of some dubious leader). If you create a secular society there’s only ever going to be new gods created, blindly followed by people who are not encouraged to think for themselves.

Imworthit · 26/08/2020 17:31

I like some of the psalms and proverbs. And jesus was pretty cool. The rest is masoginistic twaddle I wouldn't even wipe my arse with.

Imworthit · 26/08/2020 17:36

Cherry picked parts of the bible used for nafariius cult agendas destroyed my childhood. I've had to have alot of therapy because of that book's misrepresentation.

Imworthit · 26/08/2020 17:39

@dubiousdecision

It infuriates me when people talk about "the lovely bits of the bible" it's a bit like describing someone as an awful paedophile and rapist but he had lots of kittens and looked after his elderly mum so not all bad.

If Christians want to state that the bible is the word of god then all the bad bits don't make the good bits ok.

Funny you mentioned paedophilia and rape 🙄
cybercontroller · 27/08/2020 19:57

Why have so many died? Misappropriation And misunderstanding of Christ and God.

Sounds a bit no true scotsman to me.

Lifeisgenerallyfun · 27/08/2020 22:51

@cybercontroller - why do you find the statement presumptuous or ambiguous? Based company on my understanding of Christ and God as set out in my post, what is so out there about my statement that the people who have fought over the same have misappropriated the concept for their own ends?

Lifeisgenerallyfun · 27/08/2020 22:52

No idea about the random “company” in my post

Cybercontroller · 27/08/2020 23:08

Its the idea that they weren't really christians, because they did things you don't like. They may have believed in the god of the bible just as much as you do.

Also the idea that people will not be encouraged to 'think for themselves' in a secular society because they're not worshiping Jesus in the atoms or whatever wanky bullshit your on about.

YummyJamDoughnut · 27/08/2020 23:14

Yes, it does.
Despite some questionable parts, and lots that can be criticised, it can be summed up as "don't be a dick to others".

Lifeisgenerallyfun · 28/08/2020 14:03

@Cybercontroller, I don’t think you have understood my post at all quite frankly.

What I was saying is that there are many different types of “Christians” that were especially divergent in the early years of the Jesus cults. Many of these cults had beliefs mixed with pagan ideas, gnostic Christians has very different views to the Latin church. All came under the idea of Christians
(Depending on your definition of Christian).

The point I was discussing was not what the organised religions think is Christianity, but whether there was an alternative view of Christianity,including whether a more pantheistic understanding of Christianity existed either historically or was indeed possible following on from another poster’s question -it was a discussion point, it was for people who can think beyond things that are presented to them as an absolute.

I also love your debating skills of “whatever wanky bullshit your [sic] on about”, just wondering if you’re a member of the Oxford debating society? Pantheistic thoughts are present in many religions and indeed aesthetic pantheism is alive and well!

I suspect you have far more in common with religion in your worship of secular Idols than you think.

By the way I’m not “Christian”, many people presenting as Christian have done bad things. But then, so has much of mankind. The scientists who made the atom bomb probably didn’t do their best for humanity either.

Rigamorph · 28/08/2020 14:10

I was brought up as a Christian, liked the idea of Jesus and the community spirit and everything about love. Was deeply uncomfortable with most of the stories about God and his character, being jealous, sending plagues, slaughtering children etc etc
Have since discovered there are teachings and philosophies (not Christianity) that allow me to be as loving and peaceful as I want, without having to subscribe to the idea of God.
Wouldn't try to argue for or against his existence with a Christian now, I would just say even if he does exist, I don't want to be associated with him.

Rigamorph · 28/08/2020 14:12

(I am sure even Donald Trump occasionally says something that is true. Doesn't mean I want to support him)

Can't actually think of any examples off the top of my head Grin

cybercontroller · 28/08/2020 17:11

What secular idols do I worship, exactly?

Stripesgalore · 28/08/2020 17:34

Christian Gnosticism isn’t really pantheistic. There’s only the original God, Jesus and Sophia, which is similar to the trinity.

All the other characters are either unimportant, evil or incompetent.

Squirrelblanket · 28/08/2020 17:38

You are being unreasonable. It's a load of shite. 😂

Lardlizard · 28/08/2020 17:41

I can’t think of one good thing trump has ever said !

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Lifeisgenerallyfun · 28/08/2020 23:28

@Stripesgalore I agree that Gnosticism isn’t pantheistic. I was using Gnostic Christianity as a point of reference to explain that Christianity can exist in many forms beyond what people now generally think of as Christian. Most Gnostic religions believed in a form of Dualism (ie a God of the Old and New Testament) and Christ a spiritual concept (although obviously not all)

I was using the term pantheism in its common meaning (ie god is not a separate man like beingbut that the divine can be found in all material things).

The point I was making Is that if you take the General Gnostic concept Christ as spiritual rather than God made flesh then it might be possible to see Christianity as Having the potential to be pantheistic (as described above rather than the less common inference of the term as polytheistic). Sorry about any confusion.

Lifeisgenerallyfun · 28/08/2020 23:33

@cybercontroller only you can answer that. Common ones these days include economic wealth , youth, celebrity, Science, technology the list goes on. Mankind usually needs something outside his or herself to give meaning and prevent nihilism so there’s probably something, it’s the reason religions keep appearing throughout history.

cybercontroller · 29/08/2020 00:04

only you can answer that

So none then. I don't worship any of those things.

Lifeisgenerallyfun · 29/08/2020 16:48

@cybercontroller sorry I can’t mind read lol. I really don’t think you understand the argument so probably best to stop engaging.

cybercontroller · 30/08/2020 17:30

I understand, I just don't agree. And don't like being told that I worship things.

Lifeisgenerallyfun · 31/08/2020 13:16

@cybercontroller I’m sure you don’t. I’m sure you like to think you live in a secular world governed by rationale scientific objective thought with no connection to any of these stupid myths, rituals and beliefs. Well good luck with that😂

Cybercontroller · 31/08/2020 15:04

Of course I don't live in a secular world. Religion still influences many parts of society, including government in many countries.

What do you get from being so patronising?