To think private schooling should be abolished

[year5teacher]

Just to preface, I’m not criticising individual parents. You have to do what you consider best for your child - for example if the choice was a private school with excellent dyslexia support and a state school that was notoriously bad, for example, you must make the correct judgement for your child.

Just to get that out the way so the thread isn’t flooded with “well I sent DC to private school because...”. I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about the system as a whole.

AIBU to believe it’s morally wrong for us as a society to allow children of higher earners to access a generally better level of education, which in turn can affect their trajectories for the rest of their lives?

No and you're naive at best to think that even in your ideal scenario of everyone in a decent school having access to the same education will come out the with the same outcome.

Because very many children don't have educated parents, don't have parents who read to them, support them with homework, interact with school particularly, encourage them to do anything other than get through their school years. Don't aspire for them to go to uni or whatever

And that's not about money or private schools

@reefedsail

11k per term is a bargain for full boarding.

Jesus Christ.

I think higher taxation invested into education would help. Also better and longer teacher training. State education is full of stressed and unhappy teachers, which is not good for the children. The whole of it needs to be brought up to a level that children and teachers and parents can be proud of.
I’ve worked in state and private education and I’ve tutored.

@Hoggleludo

We have a really good state school by us.

What’s happened? Everyone wants to move into catchment. So prices have gone through the roof. So only the rich can go there.

Can’t win

Otherwise known as selection by mortgage.

@banjaxxed

No and you're naive at best to think that even in your ideal scenario of everyone in a decent school having access to the same education will come out the with the same outcome.

Because very many children don't have educated parents, don't have parents who read to them, support them with homework, interact with school particularly, encourage them to do anything other than get through their school years. Don't aspire for them to go to uni or whatever

And that's not about money or private schools

Yes it is about money. At the root of it what you’re describing is an effect of generations of inequality that cycle through the family, parents who were failed by the education system (certainly didn’t go to private schools if you’re saying they’re not educated) and so are disillusioned with it for their own children. State schools don’t fail children as a rule but parents who grew up in disadvantaged areas do not have the same opportunities as those who grow up in very privileged areas and that is highly likely to then potentially repeat itself with their kids. Also, plenty of working class families support their children very well at school, while I understand you’re not disputing that. My partner is the first person in his family to go to uni, and he has 7 siblings and comes from a very working class background. I don’t think I know anyone from private school in that same situation.

I think grammar schools are far far far more unfair than private schools!!

With private schools. The vast majority of people can’t afford to send their kids there anyway. So it’s almost irrelevant that they exist as they are so far out of the realm of the average person.

Grammar school were/are intended to facilitate social mobility for those that could never afford private education, but excelled academically.

And what happens? Mummy and daddy of the middle class get private tutors for years in some cases, specifically to help their child pass the test.

So the children with a natural academically ability from less affluent background lose out. Imo that is worse than private schooling, as they were never going to be able to go there.

I’m not sure what the answer is but I’ve seen it first hand where parents prep their children for years with private tutors. The child gets a place and low and behold can’t cope with the pace. Apparently it becomes very obvious which children have been tutored within weeks.

Imo if it was banned or there was a way for schools to identify those that pay for services aimed at passing the entrance test (I know that’s not going to happen but hypothetically) the demographics would be a lot different.

In some countries the electricity supply is unreliable so rich people just buy generators, then the politicians don't have much incentive to fix the problem because it doesn't affect them.

It would never happen but I think that all politicians should have to send their children to the worst performing school in their area, I'd give it ten minutes before there's a huge improvement in education across the country.

@Standrewsschool

Private school doesn’t always equate to better education.

Gary Lineker famously blamed his son’s private school, when the son didn’t get the grades he needed to get to university.

Many private schools do exams to stop the likelihood. If they don’t then there’s always a chance. Not sure if he went to a selective one.

@Purpleice

I think higher taxation invested into education would help. Also better and longer teacher training. State education is full of stressed and unhappy teachers, which is not good for the children. The whole of it needs to be brought up to a level that children and teachers and parents can be proud of. I’ve worked in state and private education and I’ve tutored.

Definitely agree with you re: teacher training.

@Chickenkatsu

In some countries the electricity supply is unreliable so rich people just buy generators, then the politicians don't have much incentive to fix the problem because it doesn't affect them.

It would never happen but I think that all politicians should have to send their children to the worst performing school in their area, I'd give it ten minutes before there's a huge improvement in education across the country.

All of this. 👏

@TableFlowerss you make really interesting points!

In an ideal world, all schools would be great. Class sizes to just 15 & teachers who are happy to be In touch with parents night and day. Unfortunately, that isn’t going to happen right now. Some parents decide to spend their money on their children’s education & that’s up to them. They shouldn’t be condemned for wanting the best. I have seen parents give up so much in order to send their children to independent schools & they’re not all extremely rich.

School changes alone is not going to sort out structural inequity. The gap in attainment exists by the time children start school. The early years funding for 2 year olds in Scotland exists to help narrow this gap not to save people money.
www.mygov.scot/childcare-costs-help/funded-early-learning-and-childcare/

You could abolish private schools. It will put enormous strain on state schools to accommodate the children. Catchment areas already provide a wealth based selection process, that would get worse. Parents with resources of knowledge or money will augment their children’s state education with everything they can in exactly the same way they already do.

The real question is what needs to be done to improve state provision alongside helping the children whose parents do not have the resources to add to the state provision. It’s more than decent facilities and access to music, drama and sport. It’s about how to raise aspirations in children who come from multiple generations of hard living and poverty. It’s about getting children with additional needs the support they need to achieve their capabilities as a default not only if the parent is capable of navigating the hoops to achieve this and if school funding is available for the school to do it. It’s supporting teachers to thrive not burn out.

It needs money. Lots of it to be used in multiple areas to address the many reasons behind structural inequity. And it is never ever going to happen with a Conservative government in power who still hold Victorian ideas about the deserving and undeserving poor.

I could never afford to and don't know if I would. But if you can afford it why not end of the day leaves more money for state eduction.

Not everyone with money has it gifted to them and most people working fucking hard for there wealth don't see why people should be bitter and jealous of it.
Friend on six fig salary pays masses of tax ,private health care and 1 child privately educated they pay the most in and take a fraction out of what other people do.
His job I say job it's more a way of life and he earns every pound and makes massive sacrifices for it to be rewarded well financially .
So of course he will have better lifestyle and privileges than the person who works at tesco and when the clock of thats work done for them.
He's didn't go to uni so it not always about privilege upbringing.

I've seen this too TableFlowers and in cases where the parents could in fact have afforded private schools, but by tutoring to get into grammar have got:

• better schooling for free

• a feeling of the moral high ground

It always astonishes me when people blithely say that we should 'bring state schools up to the quality level of (good) private schools, as though that's something that can actually be done.

In my experience, what makes good private schools good is 1) ambitious, well brought-up, well-behaved, hard-working kids from families with high expectations, cultural capital and good connections and 2) money and lots of it, to recruit highly qualified teachers and to provide working conditions which (along with the calibre and behaviour of the kids) make them want to stay, plus the funds to provide top class facilities and experiences.

Can the government pay to provide that in all state schools? Could it even provide all of those things in state schools even if it did have the money to do so? Nope.

I'm not saying state schools can't be improved, but they can't be made like top private schools.

I’ve taught in both. I’ve had amazing colleagues in both. I’ve had amazing students in both. I’ve also had the very opposite. The biggest difference to me has been the attitude of the parents and the behaviour of some students. There are v weak students and v poorly behaved students at both but when you have parents understanding the value of education, supporting the school wrt behaviour and attitude and understanding that their child should not interrupt the learning of others, that’s why learning tends to be better. At state schools, I was often firefighting. At private schools, I can teach. State schools round me are better funded, have better infrastructure and greater SEN support. Teachers are also better paid. But they have empty posts. We don’t because staff don’t leave because parents support us.

In principle yanbu. I'm lucky that my kids live in an area with many good state schools. We couldn't afford private in any case (and my DH is vehemently opposed). But if were rich and our options were a poor state school or a much higher performing school then it would be the latter I should think.
It is unfair, absolutely, however, I dont suppose that all state schools would become amazing even if fee paying schools were abolished.
Plus, not all private schools are better!

No you are right, I am not disputing that working class people can and are educated and support their kids.

But there are plenty who don't. And that's not about money because if you gave these people money they would t necessarily utilise it to get themselves and their kids out of a situation and into a better one.

At some point, you cannot blame society, the government, the system for people's choices. I am an adult. I made my choices and my priorities

My parents are both working class. As were my grandparents (mining etc)
My mum worked retail all her life. Neither my parents were well educated.

They still saw my education as a priority and they helped and encouraged me and I went to a normal, typical working class northern comprehensive school.

That's not about money.

I have one at each - by pulling one of our children out of the state school system we freed up the government place and funds for other kids.
You do realise if all the children currently in private were moved to state schools the governments school costs would increase?

*It’s more than decent facilities and access to music, drama and sport. It’s about how to raise aspirations in children who come from multiple generations of hard living and poverty. It’s about getting children with additional needs the support they need to achieve their capabilities as a default not only if the parent is capable of navigating the hoops to achieve this and if school funding is available for the school to do it. It’s supporting teachers to thrive not burn out.

It needs money. Lots of it to be used in multiple areas to address the many reasons behind structural inequity. And it is never ever going to happen with a Conservative government in power who still hold Victorian ideas about the deserving and undeserving poor.*

This is all so incredibly true.

Not always to do with being born into the right class - my parents were working class and the military paid for my school.
Many independent schools offer bursaries & scholarships.
Some people remortgage their houses, drive old bangers and don’t take holidays to pay fees.

Name changed!

I did this private schooling was very unfair (despite Or perhaps because going myself from 4-18)

Then my 3 children got Full bursaries to two different amazing private schools that have honestly blown me away.

So now I don’t want then a solo she’d!!

YANBU

I think the guiding principle here is that we should be ensuring equality of opportunity for all children as regards education. That is to say, given the importance of education in how it shapes the opportunities and life chances that a person has, we, as a society, ought to be ensuring that children have an equal opportunity to succeed.

And the fact is that private schools massively infringe the principle of equal opportunity. As pps have pointed out, the disproportionate influence of privately educated children at Oxbridge and in professions such as banking, law, academia, medicine and top industry posts demonstrates that private schools cut right across the principle of equality of opportunity for children as regards education. See the findings of research done by the Sutton Trust if you need more evidence.

This principle does not mean that I am a communist or even that I would abolish private healthcare. That is to confuse equality of opportunity with equality of outcome. We can and should applaud inequality of outcome - if people work harder, and succeed, they should be entitled to reward for doing so. And if they want to spend that on private healthcare, or even private tutoring, then so be it.

But in terms of how we design the main education system for all children, if one accepts as the right principle of equality of opportunity as regards education for all children then, as a matter of principle, private schools should be abolished, even if that can't be achieved in practice.

That should read

*so now I don’t want them abolished!!”