To think private schooling should be abolished

[year5teacher]

Just to preface, I’m not criticising individual parents. You have to do what you consider best for your child - for example if the choice was a private school with excellent dyslexia support and a state school that was notoriously bad, for example, you must make the correct judgement for your child.

Just to get that out the way so the thread isn’t flooded with “well I sent DC to private school because...”. I’m not talking about individuals, I’m talking about the system as a whole.

AIBU to believe it’s morally wrong for us as a society to allow children of higher earners to access a generally better level of education, which in turn can affect their trajectories for the rest of their lives?

It does seem yet another blunt tool Oliversmumsarmy.

Vinyl that's an odd comparison they are handpicked children going into academic or even super elite schools. The environment is designed to stretch them academically. Not osmosis from the kid next to them. Op is talking about our UK comprehensives.

I worked very hard to send my child to private school. We didn’t have foreign vacations, didn’t have new cars, didn’t eat out and I shopped frugally to ensure we had the funds to pay the school fees because we value a good education. Some people have loads of money and send their kids up private school some don’t and make sacrifices to send them. Not up to you to decide for everyone what we can choose for our children.

SDTG, your living with the lab rat consequences and so is /was my family.
My dB got in with the wrong crowd, went down the wrong path and unfortunately, everyone in the family has paid very extreme prices since.
It fuelled his victim mentality, he massively lashed out at me for choices dm made when it came to my schooling, he blames everything on that school. It's been horrific. And yet, as I said, when socialist uncle was faced with a dire comp, he sent dc to private schools.

My dm had so looked up to d uncle, because he had a PhD. She revered his intellect. Of course it was her own fault to have been influenced by him and df was also dyed red labour.
It really shook up her politics to have lived and breathed and made choices for her family, on those values that came back to bite her.

Db never forgave her. And he punished all of us.

I completely agree with you OP. I find the amount of posters who focus on their own children only and talk about doing what’s best for them only makes me sad. It’s a shame we can’t be less selfish and individualistic about education. I’d love it if more people could view private education as a systemic blight on the opportunities of those who can’t afford it.

I’d get rid of privately funded education in a heartbeat - it makes me sick.

Re 11 + favouring middle class, I know many people in older generation who were given a leg up out of poverty by the 11+, including my df.
In those days, as in df case, his dp had no interest in education at all. They thought he was weird and funny for wanting to learn and read books. They even hid his results the day they came in!!

I find the amount of posters who focus on their own children only and talk about doing what’s best for them only makes me sad. It’s a shame we can’t be less selfish and individualistic about education.

This is a fundamental human instinct though. And one reason why communism doesn’t work. We all care about our families more than anyone else.

Elena

What about dp like me, I've ranted on this thread about my dd who has sat and learned nothing in 3 years of school and its taken a kind stranger to help me? Would you begrudge me, if I could afford to send my dd to private school to get her the help she needs?
I can't sadly...
But I'd never blame any parent for it.

The vitriol and politics of envy spat at posters who support variety in eduction and yet don't mention the inequality going on in state schools like with my dd.

A bright girl, who the state is failing to educate. She's lucky, she has us but how many like her are falling away off education ledge?

I don’t think there’s much politics of envy going on. There is a strong desire to see all kids well educated and to eradicate a ruling class created by private education. There’s something badly wrong when out of 55 prime ministers 20 were educated at the most elite school in the land.

@elenacampana

I completely agree with you OP. I find the amount of posters who focus on their own children only and talk about doing what’s best for them only makes me sad. It’s a shame we can’t be less selfish and individualistic about education. I’d love it if more people could view private education as a systemic blight on the opportunities of those who can’t afford it.

I’d get rid of privately funded education in a heartbeat - it makes me sick.

Systemic blight on opportunities? What?

Child A with attentive lawyer parents going to state school in leafy Surrey instead of private school will make no difference to the opportunities available to child B with feckless parents living somewhere a hell of a lot cheaper.

@CommonCarder

Thank you for replying op.

What is the educational evidence that having richer children sitting next to poorer ones in a class raises attainment in poorer students? Also what is the possible mechanism that would make it happen.

Sorry if my wording was off.

Some thinking suggests that as the LA children can often be those who are of lower income, and sometimes there’s a racial divide (in some schools), grouping by mixed ability stops children from working in groups with peers who are “like them”. Also I would say some bad practice I see a LOT in ability grouping is putting children who are EAL learners in the LA set even though they don’t need to be, just because their English isn’t fluent... it basically puts such a cap on their learning.

Social constructivist theory in the classroom became a big thing about 20-30 years ago I think, which is why mixed ability grouping became more popular. I spoke about Vygotsky’s theory of the zone of proximal development in another comment but it’s interesting if you wanted to look it up further! This is about how it can help both LA and HA children as they play different roles, posters have pointed out they didn’t have great experiences with this in school and I feel that it can be used badly. You have to be really careful with what the outcome is and make sure you’re not just getting the HA child to explain stuff for you.

I know there’s also theory that ability grouping doesn’t help HA kids as they get a fixed idea of their ability and they might avoid challenges which are needed for them to learn properly, I’d have to find out who said that though.

There’s also lots of more recent pedagogy around a fixed and growth mindset, and lots of experts believe that ability grouping contributes to a fixed mindset rather an a growth one, which can hinder both LA and HA children. LA children can think they’ll never reach the level of HA kids and HA kids can think they should be able to achieve stuff with little effort and then can have not enough resilience when that doesn’t pan out.

Ultimately people disagree on this and I don’t really feel there’s one definite answer. I think that putting HA and LA children in pairs isn’t the right way, I tend to consider behaviour when I’m doing my groupings and that’s what I’m mostly guided by - how are they all going to work together as a group, are they going to bring out the best in each other, etc.

Really it’s just one part of classroom management and I think it can be done both ways, it’s your whole classroom culture that matters.

@elenacampana

I completely agree with you OP. I find the amount of posters who focus on their own children only and talk about doing what’s best for them only makes me sad. It’s a shame we can’t be less selfish and individualistic about education. I’d love it if more people could view private education as a systemic blight on the opportunities of those who can’t afford it.

I’d get rid of privately funded education in a heartbeat - it makes me sick.

Don’t you just wish that some parents who have no interest in their children’s state school did the same, or do feckless parents not exist? Is it ok to not discipline and push your children on the basis of low income. Why pull down those who try for their children to make those feel good that don’t?

feckless parents

Can you not see how that language is just kind of gross and stereotyping?

I agree with you in principle, as I would rather a properly funded education system and healthcare instead of letting the state systems limp along while those that can afford it pay for premium services.

I don’t know how we get that now though, as we are so far down the privatisation route... :(

There’s something badly wrong when out of 55 prime ministers 20 were educated at the most elite school in the land.

If one school is brilliant at turning out prime ministers then maybe instead of shutting it down we should find out how they do it and do that elsewhere. It's not just about it being private because there are lots of top public schools who don't churn out prime ministers.

@TorkTorkBam

There’s something badly wrong when out of 55 prime ministers 20 were educated at the most elite school in the land.

If one school is brilliant at turning out prime ministers then maybe instead of shutting it down we should find out how they do it and do that elsewhere. It's not just about it being private because there are lots of top public schools who don't churn out prime ministers.

I think it’s more to do with those schools being seen as so prestigious and elite that those are the individuals that are “fit to run the country”, or at least are considered to be. I don’t think it’s because people who go to Eton are particularly good prime ministers. I mean Christ, look at the track record.

Ok as follows:

My parents couldn't speak a word of English
They're immigrants
Grew up in poor villages in India

Came to England worked menial jobs often 2-3 jobs a DAY!!! We worked our arses off at school cos we knew our only way out of this poverty was education. Shit state schools btw.

What gets my goat is that white people in this country don't have that language barrier that they could work their arses off to do better for their kids - their kids could get a good education and move onto better paid jobs.

Just because I've now worked my arse off and can afford a better education for my kids than I got why shouldn't I pay for it? The way I see it the opportunity is there for everyone in this country to better themselves.

You don't realise how bloody lucky you are!! I know how lucky I am!! But we worked for it and I knew I would never throw the sacrifices my parents made back in their faces my effing up at a school. I kept my head down out of the drugs and the shit that went on around me and focussed.

So folks stop blaming the government have a look at your own 4 walls - how business minded are you? Honestly how clever are you? Not everyone can have it all!! Push your kids focus them. There is so much opportunity.

As an example look at a Ben Francis at Gymshark. Don't use private/state as an excuse. Duncan Bannatyne ran ice cream vans!! The world is your oyster!

It's not a paper application to become prime minister. They have to become politicians and climb the greasy pole for decades. There is something Eton does to make those kids think they could and should become prime minister and then the children actually start down that path. There has got to be something there that can be learned and used elsewhere.

I completely agree with you OP. It's social apartheid. I say that as someone who will be sending my DC to private school (because I am not willing to sacrifice my children (one of whom has special needs) for my political beliefs) but my God I wish the whole system were abolished.

@TorkTorkBam

It's not a paper application to become prime minister. They have to become politicians and climb the greasy pole for decades. There is something Eton does to make those kids think they could and should become prime minister and then the children actually start down that path. There has got to be something there that can be learned and used elsewhere.

I suspect part of it might be telling them that they’re better than other people.

When I say this I am not talking about all private schools - there’s a difference between most of them and then the ones like Eton and Harrow.

@TorkTorkBam
Really??!

More Borises, Goves, Rees-Moggs and Cummingses??

I can think of nothing worse.
I would have thought that more over-privileged white males feathering their own nests and organising the ‘truth’ to suit them is precisely what we can do without...

Also, @TorkTorkBam I can’t remember who it was but someone earlier on the thread said that either their school or their DC’s school (I think) had visits from MPs, etc, talks about getting into politics. I don’t think this happens as much in state schools so that could be something taken and learned from.

@Commonwasher 😂 😂 one of my lecturers at my undergrad used to call them “male, pale, and stale”

@year5teacher

feckless parents

Can you not see how that language is just kind of gross and stereotyping?

And can you not see that your type of socialist infantilising of grown adults who fail to take ANY personal responsibility is creating a generation of under achievers who blame everyone else for their life choices. The sense of victimhood is so entrenched, further solidified by this type false empathy which is basically not empathy at all, it is a form of patronising fully able human beings. Enabling people is great, creating dependency is not. Quite worrying that our teachers hold this attitude, if they are infantilising adults, I dread to think what coaching they children must be receiving.

Do you honestly not believe that parents have any influence on their children’s outcomes? Do you really believe that all parents make amazing choices within their gift and never display bad behaviour for which only they and they alone are responsible? Do you really believe that abolishing private schools will change those parents’ outlook?

YABVU

Elena, don't you think the education at private schools is good? In fact so good many around the world come here for it - one of our best things ever? If you accept it is good is it not a good thin 6% (or 20% I think at A level|) get the benefit of that and can pass on what they learn in their careers in the future to the benefit of the whole UK? (Never mind saying the state the cost of educating 500,000 children)

Labour's Keir S's grammar school became fee paying when he was there and his Surrey born too. Is it not just that some schools educate children well and therefore the children do well in life and other schools don't.