To think DS2 has changed into someone I don't recognise in 8 weeks?

[ComplexPTSDmaybe]

DS2 is 13. I just offered him a drink as he hasn't eaten or drunk since he got up. This is how the conversation went:

Me: 'DS2 do you want a drink? There's some cold coffee you could put ice in or some iced orange juice?'
DS2: 'What?'
Me: 'Do you want a drink? It's hot and you haven't had a drink. (offered options again)'
DS2: 'No I am not thirsty'
me: 'You should drink in this weather'
DS2: 'I'VE TOLD YOU I'M NOT THIRSTY YOU IDIOT'.

At that point I had to walk out or i was going to tell him to fuck off. Not great. But this is how every conversation with him about any food, drink, showering, doing homework, going out pans out and I am really reaching my tipping point.

A few major things have happened since March. Obviously there is: -Lockdown and no school
-Judging by how he smells and how much he has grown and his spots teenage hormones have kicked in
-He has just found out he is going to get a big inheritance from his father's family when he is 18 (his grandfathers estate is worth over a million and half and the idiots have, as always, told him 'because he is carrying on the family name he is going to see a lot of it'. DS2 is the golden child in ex-H family as all the other GC are girls. I have warned him that it will NOT make him a millionaire and it will be years before he sees any of it as there are 4 offspring and loads of grandchildren but they have filled his head)
-He found out I left exH because he broke my ribs and regularly hit me. He is blaming me. Calling me a loser and keeps saying how small my house is (his dad kept the big family home)

AIBU to really not know where to go with him? Do i get him counseling? I do not know (or like really) my child anymore and it is tearing me apart.

OP, I am the softest mother I know but that sort of behaviour brings out the dragon in me. Find him, make eye contact with him and tell him he must never call you an idiot again. Ask how he'd feel if you, the person he has known he can rely on all his life, started calling him names. Then look him in the eye and absolutely as if you mean it, say, 'DS2, you are such a loser! You are an idiot!' Laugh at him. Wait till he looks uncomfortable and tell him you don't mean it at all, you were acting, but you saw the change in his expression, saw that it upset him, but you need him to know what it is like to be on the receiving end of such sneering scorn from someone you love and have always trusted to return your love.

Then tell him that you really would be a loser and an idiot if you had chosen to stay with a man who beat you up just to have a bigger house. That it takes immense strength to stand up to a bully and walk away from him. Right now he might value material things over anything else but you trust that he is intelligent enough to see through that and to appreciate being raised in a safe home where he is not witnessing or being subjected to violence as the norm. Make him discuss it with you. Insist on asking him what he thinks about each of the things you are saying. Ask who the real loser is - the person who creates a safe, comfortable home for her children, away from a violent atmosphere, or a grown man who breaks the ribs of someone who loves and cares for him. One of those two people is strong. Which one does he think it is?

And finally, insist he does something for you (or better still, with you) to prove he is genuinely sorry for treating you with such contempt. Give him a choice of about three things all of which involve hard work - clearing the garage or attic; painting and decorating a room etc. Then when you do it together, do it without any anger or reference to why he is doing it with you. It might not work, but I had a few run ins with DS1 who could be a sneering arrogant little toad when he was younger and he wouldn't dare be now. He knows I can get absolutely rock-hard with him if he oversteps the very wide boundaries that are set.

I have a tricky DS, he has all sorts of underlying issues so there is some extreme behaviour, but he's also a grumpy teenage boy at the less extreme times. I find that asking him what he wants for lunch or telling him to drink something doesn't work. What works much better is saying that I'm making myself something that I know he likes, would he like one too. What also works is just putting something into his hand while he's in front of the tv or the Xbox, like two quarters of an apple with the core removed, a couple of oat biscuits or a small peeled carrot, when it's straightforward to eat he generally just puts it into his mouth rather than finding somewhere to put it down. A large glass of water left nearby will also get drunk.

I also try to keep communication open by having micro conversations that he isn't necessarily obliged to respond to. So no direct questions just little snippets like the funny thing you heard on the radio or the super-flashy car you saw in the supermarket car park or something that reminded you of an aspect from your childhood. Sometimes I'll say things and DS will just grunt or say "I don't care", sometimes it kicks off an actual conversation. I've been missing the school run since lockdown started as that was a great time to have random conversations.

One of the parenting courses that I did (when you have a child with 'issues' they always start off by giving the parents a parenting course) suggested that you remind the child that you are always thinking of them. You do it in little ways, like telling them that you've changed the bed sheets and you washed them with the fabric conditioner that they like the smell of, or you were in the supermarket and saw a new type of biscuit and thought it was the kind of thing he would enjoy, or you bought the cheese that he likes, or it's his favourite dessert after dinner tonight. Just along the lines of 'I did X because I know you like it'. Try and have at least two or three of those a day.

On the personal hygiene front expensive, aspirational products seem to encourage showering. Yes, I know that Ted Baker (or whatever) shower gel doesn't work any better than the supermarket stuff and costs 5 times as much, but my DS liked it and more importantly he used it. You can't bring kids to the supermarket at the moment, I used to hide my impatience and let DS sniff every single Lynx fragrance before he would choose one even though it added at least 20 mins to the shop, but see if there is a brand that he admires and buy some of that.

It sounds like your ex has done a number on your DS2, and he has absorbed his father's attitude to you.

This is really unpleasant, but is very hard to unpick, because if you criticise his father to him, then it will just back up his father's view of you.

I think all you can do is to apply consequences for the rudeness, and continue to stay as calm as you possibly can - and maybe ask him in what way he considers you a "loser" for leaving a violent domestic abuse situation?

I mean, it's quite possible that he IS a chip off the old paternal block, and he is just angry that he had to move with you and not stay in the family home with his father - and that he genuinely believes that you should have stayed there just so he could still be living in that house. There are people like that out there - they're so self-absorbed, they don't care about anyone else, so long as they have what they want. I can't tell you if he's like that - but you will know.

I realise that you don't want to lose your boy - of course you don't - but it may come to the point where it would actually be better to let him go back to his Dad's. This would of course be exactly what he wants - but if he is genuinely that selfish, it may be the only way for you to get any peace from his behaviour.

At all times though, maintain the point that you still love him, you just don't love his behaviour right now. I have a 12.5yo boy who is most of the way through puberty, and who already thinks he's an adult, so I have a lot of sympathy with your situation - but mine hasn't reached the stage of calling me an idiot (yet!?), although his tone and his temper leave a lot to be desired at times! WHen it was clear that puberty was starting with him, I showed him the Kevin and Perry tv clips, where Kevin turns 13, which helped because it put some humour into it.

But I think your son is beyond that sort of "help" - he's too far into the moodiness and arrogance of puberty. If you're still seeing the counsellor, I'd suggest asking them for some guidance too - I doubt your son will agree to go himself, and there's no point forcing him to. But you could get some strategies on how to not "bite" when he's goading you.

I'm so sad for you that you're having this trouble with your boy - it's heartbreaking.

I cant believe you've told us your DS is adopting bastard ExH's attitude and people are discussing his right not to drink coffee.

Does your son have contact with his Dad, go on visits etc? Is he getting this from him, on those visits?

During COVID19 the need for counselling for children and young people has gone through the roof but nonetheless I think its a very good time to seek help for your son. You are right to be on it now, otherwise he could turn out to be a very troubled young man. Have you had a look at the Young Minds website? They have a good parents helpline.

He is old enough to know if he is thirsty, hungry, cold or hot. Leave him be. When you want him to shower (because he stinks), you don't ask him, but TELL HIM go and shower. As for the calling me an 'idiot', he would have had to listen to looooong tirade of respect and name-calling from me.

Tell him mind his manners washing is non negotiable but leave drinks to him, what is with kids these days if I’d have spoken like that I’d have been pulled for it. I’m 54 does that make a difference?

I would be worried. Its never admitted to by anyone in MH (or anywhere) but many very unpleasant things can be genetic - including personaility disorders & various MH issues. You could very well have a mini Dad on your hands & the only way to stop it getting worse is to get specialist help for him. Which wont be easy as everyone will tell you hes just being a teenager. But personaility disorders start in their teenage years. Is he also a bully? Does he have close friends? Female friends? How is he with small children & animals?

Sounds like the nastiness, bullying & misogyny runs through the fathers family - what kind of grandparent disinherits his femal GC? What kind of child calls their mother a loser? He clearly sees that the nasty men get the wealth & the victim women get nothing. And he identifies with the nasty men.

I think you need a psychologist that specilises in this kind of thing. for BOTH of you. And you really really need to be strong & put up with absolutely no nonsense. He is still economically & practically dependant on you so you do have all the power unless he gets violent. You can turn it around but not without knowing exactly what strategies to use.

Maybe love bombing/doing things is part of that. Maybe more autonomy is. Who knows? Hes complex & you need professional help.

Just to say that I had that with my DS. I don't think he has ever called me an idiot to my face but I got the raised voice, slamming doors, huffing and just bring belligerent.

He is now a young adult and is lovely. We get along great and I can now bring up subject matters without going defensive or throwing it back at me. It was hard to picture this when he was 13!

It will probably not sit well with you but I think you should talk to his father. Just stick to describing your boys behaviour, don’t suggest those attitudes come from the father or his family. If his father mirrors them and says that your house is small, and you are an idiot, ask him if he’s not concerned that these attitudes will impact on the child’s education, career, relationships. I m guessing you would not have married the guy if he’d been openly misogynistic and abusive, so he may well agree that the behaviour needs to be addressed. And he may also begin to get a glimmer of understanding that his lack of respect for you is having a negative impact upon his child. He may well be such a master of manipulation that he will seize upon this as a sign of weakness in you, but just repeat that you are both parents and you wanted his input.
When your son is rude to you, let him see the hurt this causes, rather than the anger, and never ever tell him he is just like his Dad,as if that is a negative. He is processing some really uncomfortable things and he clearly identifies strongly with his fathers family, he has to find a way to be able to love you both, not choose between you. If he points out that his Dads house is bigger, agree, tell him what you liked best about the house, maybe a conversation will develop where you can ask if it’s difficult for him to move between 2 very different homes, maybe he will be able to acknowledge that there are things he loves about your house. Maybe he has split everything, so in his head, he belongs to his father , and his older half brother to you, maybe he feels less loved in your house, particularly with the whole little prince thing going on at his fathers house.
It sounds really tough. I hope you find a way through

Vodka There is a very strong, embedded misogyny running through ex's family. To the point that my ex MIL died weighing 6 stone as she was so controlled. Ex BIL had an affair and bullied his wife into having a late stage baby to try to get her to have a boy and went on a dating site...the day the baby was born and was a girl.

I do not want to say my son is his father. He still has half my genes but I am a health researcher and have an MSc in Psychology so I can't ignore what is staring me in the face. When he doesn't eat or drink his mood dips and he gets even more aggressive, I have just realised I was tiptoeing around that, trying to head it off at the pass, so he wouldn't turn. Not good at all. Everyones responses are really helping me process this. Thank you.

Don't get me started about the inheritance conversation. I was fuming about it.

If my 13 year old called me an idiot he'd soon be apologising I can tell you that! I do not understand how MNetters accept such rudeness and dismiss it as "that's just teenagers".

First thing to do is to read this book.

It sounds like fairly typical teenage behaviour, which is being wound up by your ex and his family.

The book will a) reassure you that you are not alone and b) give you some really effective tactics at handling this.

You may need to take things further eventually, re counselling etc, but it is a very good start.

If my 13 year old called me an idiot he'd soon be apologising I can tell you that! I do not understand how MNetters accept such rudeness and dismiss it as "that's just teenagers"

It is just teenagers but you don't accept it. However it has to be dealt with the right way.

They want you to get really upset and to react with a big row, you need to devise a set of consequences that you are able to impose calmly and effectively.

DS2 didn't really have a concept that they are actually very wealthy because they are very very cautious with money and it is the land that they own that is where the money lies. So DS had no idea but now thinks he is coming into lots of money as an adult and can behave how he likes. I have told him over and over that this may well not happen. But his dad and GF have set this narrative up in his mind. His Dad often comments on my small house and how we all 'crammed in there' but it is my house. I bought it myself after going back to university and working my arse off after being shafted in the divorce. I am no idiot, in fact I am more qualified than his dad (doing my Doctorate at the moment through work) but i am working class, from Yorkshire and my parents are not well off. I think he must get fed lots of toxic messages about me tbh. Otherwise why does he hate me so much?

I honestly wouldn't have held back telling him to fuck off. And where the door is if he thinks living with his father would be so great.
I wouldn't bother engaging with him until he could do so civilly.

@Frangipaniflower

For a couple of weeks just don't do anything for him except put a meal on the table and tell him its there. Be calm and just say I am not doing anything until you learn to respect me. Be polite if he speaks to you but don't cave in. Let him do his.own washing etc.

This. It's never got beyond a threat in this house. Just the threat of withdrawing pocket money, lifts and treats has them apologising. Mine have a lovely active life and I bend over backwards to make it happen for them and they know it. Life looks pretty grey without all the fun stuff I arrange and do for them.

As for his Dad and his family, I also had years of this too, them being the fun, extravagant, party family. I let it play out until some of them overplayed their hands and behaved badly in front of my children, who were shocked by it and then I told them in an age appropriate way just how bad their behaviour was and had been. I don't really agree with never criticising the ex and just absorbing all the blows. How can your child become a well rounded emotionally aware individual if they don't have all the information? It's failing them imo.

The grandfather might have a lot of years in him yet . My GF was 97 when he died. ( not that he left anything for grandchildren ) .
Hopefully , your son will be out of his teenage years when that happens .

Wills can be changed too .

@Frangipaniflower

For a couple of weeks just don't do anything for him except put a meal on the table and tell him its there. Be calm and just say I am not doing anything until you learn to respect me. Be polite if he speaks to you but don't cave in. Let him do his.own washing etc.

You do know that is emotional abuse?

I think deep down I am worried DS2 will turn out like his dad. The verbal stuff, contempt for me and the arrogance is like living with ex-H again and I think it is impacting on our relationship

This is at the heart of your issues. It risks becoming a self fulfilling prophecy because if someone feels pushed into a role they will sometimes shrug and then play up to. Equally, his Dad's behaviour may have damaged him and he may feel torn between you. It sounds like his Dad is using wealth and inheritance to sway him and get him on side. I think sometimes kids will just pick a side because the cognitive dissonance of having to oscillate between seeing his dad as you see him, and seeing you as his Dad portrays is too mentally draining and confusing. This is why parents sabotaging the other even after a split is so damaging - it doesn't just affect the other parent, it affects the kids as well.

I think yes, he probably would benefit from counselling, as would you. But it's a hard situation because of the crap his Dad has been feeding him for years. I think if you can find coping strategies for managing the fear that he will turn out like his Dad - which might involve accepting that yes, that is a possibility - you will feel stronger and more able to parent him through his teen years. If he has some anger towards you or his Dad then counselling on his own could really help him deal with that as well.

Best of luck - I co-parent with someone who is a bit like your ex, and have a kid similar age. It is hard. x

It is just teenagers but you don't accept it. However it has to be dealt with the right way.

No it's some teenagers. I just do not believe that they're this rude, obnoxious mass. They all have their moments obviously but you have to address it hard when it happens as I am sure most parents do. It's the MNetters on here who routinely dismiss it, and on this thread blame the OP for offering coffee too much!

You do know that is emotional abuse?

No it's not, but unfortunately what he is doing is.

I totally understand why you DON'T want to tell him to fuck off (despite the provocation)- as his dad sounds quite a nasty chap, he needs you as the emotionally intact adult!!

School unfortunately are unlikely to have the resources to help, if it's a state school.

Just sending support. 13 year olds are generally vile. You are aware I guess, with your background, that ANY 13 yr old boy will have very poor empathy skills, due to their frontal lobe development? So it's too early to worry for now that he's like his dad's side. Glad your 17 year old sounds nicer. Hang in there OP xx