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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that the Scottish government should not have caved over exam results?

391 replies

Notthemessiah · 11/08/2020 17:11

So the Scottish government have caved in and have given their students the grades that their teachers have said they should get, despite the fact that overall they are massively inflated compared to previous years actual real results.

AIBU to think that this will massively penalise those pupils at schools where teachers were actually honest and realistic about their students likely results and instead benefit those who chose fantasy figures either through actual deceit, sheer wishful thinking or believing that the grades would be downgraded by some kind of system anyway.

Everyone was bleating about how it was unfair that pupils going to worse-performing schools got their results downgraded, but the stats don't lie - theirs were much more inflated compared to previous years that those from better-performing schools and it's ridiculous to think that all of them were suddenly going to improve this year.

It was always going to be an unfair system whatever happened but this just turns this year's results into a total joke - how universities, employers etc are expected to interpret them and compare them to other years is anyone's guess.

I hope that this doesn't happen in England and Wales too but it's hard to see how it can't - otherwise it puts Scottish students at a big advantage over their English and Welsh compatriots.

OP posts:
GrumpiestOldWoman · 11/08/2020 20:37

@ChloeCrocodile

The way the moderation worked was that the pass mark was effectively different for each school

Nonsense. There was no exams this year. And therefore no pass marks at all.

Some schools submitted grades which are seriously out of kilter with expected performance. Either they didn't bother with the moderation or they did but still found the cohort notably more capable that previous years. In England, they can appeal on the basis of the latter.

"effectively"
Piggywaspushed · 11/08/2020 20:37

Yes, I think that individual schools who had appeared to have inflated their grades should have been queried upon submission. A dialogue and scrutiny might actually have been a helpful process.

Piggywaspushed · 11/08/2020 20:39

In Scotland, though noble there was coursework for lots of subjects ready to be submitted.

GrumpiestOldWoman · 11/08/2020 20:39

@Piggywaspushed

Yes, I think that individual schools who had appeared to have inflated their grades should have been queried upon submission. A dialogue and scrutiny might actually have been a helpful process.
Agreed this would have been better. However in its absence I think it's unacceptable to just moderate grades in the way they did.
noblegiraffe · 11/08/2020 20:42

It CANNOT be right that pupils who got 5 As in highers last year were then awarded low Advanced highers

But that’s the thing with statistics. It will be right at a cohort level, but undeniably wrong for certain individuals. Hence the ability to appeal.

This would have been known since the start.

Like I said, the only reason people are kicking off is because the overestimates were more predominant in deprived areas.

If it had been overestimates for boys then everyone would just be banging on about how teachers favour boys and the overestimates showed this favouritism or something. And the grades would have stood, I am sure.

noblegiraffe · 11/08/2020 20:45

Always talking with a maths hat on, Piggy. Grin what is this coursework?

Just looked at the SQA website, it said coursework wasn’t going to be marked because of social distancing requirements. I guess the pandemic was deemed more important.

titchy · 11/08/2020 20:46

@Notthemessiah

"Those who get unfairly high grades will soon be shown at college or university."

At which point it will be too late for the student who actually should have got that place but didn't because their teacher didn't inflate their grades.

Yep, wasted maintenance loan, fee loan if they go to uni south of the border, and parental contribution. For them to drop out after a year because the they're not up to the standard.
Piggywaspushed · 11/08/2020 20:47

Agreed, but I still don't understand why They couldn't use the data they already had on the reliability of predictions of individual schools. Too controversial perhaps to out those schools, or appear to punish them. Ironically.

Doyouthinktheysaurus · 11/08/2020 20:47

My understanding is that they moderated results based on schools past performance which penalized children who excelled despite going to schools with a lower achieving cohort. I think it's disgraceful.

Ds2 is one such child and I would be gutted if his predicted results are downgraded because he had worked his socks off in a very average comprehensive. He got some 9's in his mocks, I like to think that would be reflected in his grades but he is an outlier within the school and how unfair would it be if he got given lower grades than his mocks simply because the school overall has lower average grades!! Obviously I don't know his results yet and it might be fine but I am worried by what has happened in Scotland.

I am not saying they should take inflated grades but they used a very blunt tool to try to correct overestimated grades which discriminates against the very children they want to encourage and nurture.

Piggywaspushed · 11/08/2020 20:48

The coursework thing was a volte face. They should have marked it.

GrumpiestOldWoman · 11/08/2020 20:49

Yep, wasted maintenance loan, fee loan if they go to uni south of the border, and parental contribution. For them to drop out after a year because the they're not up to the standard.

So it's better not to let them try and just write these kids off?

user1487194234 · 11/08/2020 20:55

Obviously some grades were inflated by some teachers
Shock horror pass me a large brandy
Total shambles

unmarkedbythat · 11/08/2020 21:01

From reading the thread I don't think either option was a good one. If children get downgraded because they attend a school that tends to get poor results, that is appalling. Accepting teacher assessment without moderation seems daft. But on balance I'd rather have the latter, simply because the former makes me feel so angry.

titchy · 11/08/2020 21:02

@GrumpiestOldWoman

Yep, wasted maintenance loan, fee loan if they go to uni south of the border, and parental contribution. For them to drop out after a year because the they're not up to the standard.

So it's better not to let them try and just write these kids off?

No Hmm It's better to leave the moderated Mark’s as they are and allow the appeals process to happen. As planned. So they could get their uni place if they did in fact merit it.
Therewillbetroubleahead · 11/08/2020 21:04

It CANNOT be right that pupils who got 5 As in highers last year were then awarded low Advanced highers

It certainly could be right. It may be unlikely that a straight A candidate who worked hard with a good teacher would get low marks but it can and does happen.

yetmorecomplaining · 11/08/2020 21:05

The coursework was a total failure, the N5 coursework had already been submitted to the SQA, the marking is done at home anyway by the markers and the meeting prior could easily have been done online.

The vast majority of Higher and AH coursework was all packaged and ready to go and could (and should) have been marked as well.

Its bloody ironic that this happened the year after the unit assessments were dropped from the Higher and AH courses as that would have been more solid evidence too.

titchy · 11/08/2020 21:05

What is now absolutely certain, is that a significant proportion of grades are too high. And everyone knows it. And no one will believe those kids' grades are what they deserved. Even if they are.

GrumpiestOldWoman · 11/08/2020 21:06

titchy your confidence in the appeals process is laudable.

Piggywaspushed · 11/08/2020 21:10

I cannot think of a single example of that ever happening .

yetmorecomplaining · 11/08/2020 21:10

@Therewillbetroubleahead while it can be right, if said pupil also got 94% in their Advanced Higher prelim and had already submitted an excellent coursework then the grade drop is a huge fail on the SQA's part due to them totally abandoning the 'Getting it Right for Every Child' theme and going with a blunt statistical algorithm.

If it wasn't a huge fuck up all around the Scottish Government would never have climbed down in the way they did.
It might not be a great solution but its certainly better than the mass downgrading based on statistics from children other than the ones being assessed.

anon444877 · 11/08/2020 21:18

One unintended and obvious outcome of this will be the number of appeals will go up - as a parent, reading about this statistical moderation being the norm, wouldn’t you be more inclined to appeal in any given year now?

All of this has massively undermined confidence that the exam results are fair.

ThreeImaginaryBoys · 11/08/2020 21:20

I can't work out how this affects you, OP?

DdraigGoch · 11/08/2020 21:23

@Oblomov20

I completely disagree OP. I doubt the teachers lied etc as you describe and over-inflated the grades much.
By up to 20%. Not necessarily lying, could simply be rose-tinted glasses.
titchy · 11/08/2020 21:28

@GrumpiestOldWoman

titchy your confidence in the appeals process is laudable.
Appeal are common. Why do you think they wouldn't have worked this year?
SmileEachDay · 11/08/2020 21:30

@noblegiraffe

Hi!

I’ve got a question. When we generated the CAGs we did this:

Class teacher put students into grade bands
Class teacher ranked students within grade bands
HoD and class teacher went through and discussed
Department then ranked whole year group within bands in meeting
HoD looked at this and the last 3 years dept results by grade
Final meeting ensuring CAGs were broadly in line with previous data
Dept data to SLT for sign off

This happened in each dept, so our school data should be in line with previous performance.

Would this process mean we’d still get downgraded if there was a wholesale issue a la Scotland or would the interval rigour mean we’d be less affected?