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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think about kicking out (good) tenants?

394 replies

pctmmn · 11/08/2020 13:36

I've had them for over three years and never missed a payment. But in April they said they were struggling so offered a 1/5th rent discount for three months. When this ended they asked for another three months. It doesn't affect my bottom line has I've taken out a 6 month mortgage holiday and the payments won't increase when they start again as it's added to the term.

I've been able to build up a bit of cash, but one works at a hotel and the other manages a resterant.

Would I be unreasonable to ask them to confirm the full rent needs to be paid for September else I'll give them notice? I really want someone in there paying the full rent and it feels like I'm subbing them right now.

OP posts:
GlummyMcGlummerson · 12/08/2020 08:37

Don't be stupid, I haven't pocketed the mortgage holiday. I've used it to boost my reserve funds to prepare for future problems. Jesus Christ it's just sensible management

So on a normal month where does the money to "boost your reserve funds" come from seeing as the rent just covers your mortgage?

GlummyMcGlummerson · 12/08/2020 08:38

No it wasn't, it said nothing about this when applying for it. If it was to pass on wouldn't it be made in the terms?

It's what the chancellor laid out and countless recommendations for landlords from various bodies. I assume you sign up to the same bodies I do? Happy to post links for you if you need help on managing finances around your prosperity through the pandemic?

pctmmn · 12/08/2020 08:38

@GlummyMcGlummerson

I don't for one second beleive you're a landlord

Why, because I'm not a tight arse? Feel free to do a AS with the word 'landlord' or 'tenant' I've posted plenty about my situation as a landlord

What's wrong with people spending less if they have less money coming in?

Because they are on furlough, ergo they'll be back to their normal income before long. "Cutting your cloth accordingly" isn't changing your entire circumstances and uprooting your life based on your financial situation today that will improve. If they were struggling long term I'd agree with you but they're not

One of them has lost their job and I'm not sure if the other even still has their job.

It's pure fantasy to think once furlough ends 9 million will walk back into their job imo.

OP posts:
Bluntness100 · 12/08/2020 08:40

I’m also surprised how many folks don’t know what a mortgage holiday is. Maybe it’s best to think of it as a mortgage pause. The op still has to pay the amount outstanding, just she can take a pause for a period and then resume paying it. It still needs to be paid, and with interest.

The whole the tenants are paying the mortgage thing is odd, I wonder if people posting that stay in hotels and shout they are paying the hotels bills too. Renting a property is a business transaction. The renters are paying to stay in the accommodation, just as they do in a hotel. How the landlord or the hotel uses the income is not relevant. The renter is paying to stay in the accommodation in both scenarios.

pctmmn · 12/08/2020 08:42

@GlummyMcGlummerson

Don't be stupid, I haven't pocketed the mortgage holiday. I've used it to boost my reserve funds to prepare for future problems. Jesus Christ it's just sensible management

So on a normal month where does the money to "boost your reserve funds" come from seeing as the rent just covers your mortgage?

The rent only just covers the total expenses, not just mortgage payments.

As the landlord tax has come in my margins are now wafer thin. My property is very well maintained.

OP posts:
IlanaWexler · 12/08/2020 08:55

If they can't pay the full price in September then will you allow them to pay the discounted amount during their 2 months notice period? If so then I think this is entirely reasonable.

PersonaNonGarter · 12/08/2020 08:55

OP, you’ve been open and reasonable. I think you are being sensible.

Give the tenants plenty of warning and let them make the financial decisions about their own lives. Be kind/clear/firm in all your dealings with them.

I hope lots of the posters on here are not involved in business decisions. If they are, the economy is truly fucked.

OneForMeToo · 12/08/2020 08:56

3 years of rentals and work history? And you expect to get new tenants fast? During this hell of a year? I don’t know about your area but I can go on right move and I’ve got over 180 properties to pick from within a 3 mile radius and that’s without the ones on websites that don’t link onto Rightmove and private private let’s also didn’t include studios in that search either.

gamerchick · 12/08/2020 08:57

Really glad I don't private rent. Sounds like it sucks.

IrishMamaMia · 12/08/2020 09:00

100 per cent agree with the poster who said this 'But they are kind of subbing you in the long term by paying your mortgage.'
Have you ever read or watched 'A Christmas Carol' OP? There's a very similar character to you in it Wink

WombatChocolate · 12/08/2020 09:02

It is a tricky one. Many comments made by people reveal a lack of understanding about mortgage payments, about being a Landlord being a business and also that tenants are people struggling with Covid like everyone else.

Like most things, I think this mostly comes down to good and clear communication and that all agreements are in writing. If I were Op, I would be clearer in my mind that taking a mortgage holiday IS going to cost me....it might not be costing me right now, but it will be added to the balance and accrue interest, so over time, this mortgage holiday will cost me more than if I had paid the mortgage as usual now. Because of that, she is right that she is 'subbing' them.

The fact that the Landlord is probably richer and probably owns at least 2 properties, whilst the tenant is probably poorer and probably owns none, isn't particularly a factor in deciding what is right to do in this scenario. No other business says, that because the business owner is richer, poorer customers should get the products they sell cheaper or for free. Tenants are not 'paying the landlords mortgage' - they are paying rent for receiving the benefits of living in a property. It is entirely up to the Landlord what they do with that money...it could go on holidays, charity, updating the property, a yacht, the mortgage on one of many properties, or their council tax......in the same way earnings from any business can go on anything the recipient chooses to spend them on.

In this situation, I would have been flexible with tenants. A very small, short-term and clearly defined term discount, I might have written off. For anything larger or more long term (or becoming lomg term) I would have npbeen making clear that my mortgage had paused but the payments plus further interest would still be due, so it would be a rent holiday with a repayment plan for them......shorter repayment term than on my mortgage, but basically similar principle.

At the current time, LLs need to accept lots if tenants are struggling and lots are going to lose their jobs in the next few months. In lots of sectors of the rental market, especially those where tenants tend to work in retail and hospitality, market rents might drop anyway as large was antithesis tenants lose their jobs. It ight be very hard to find tenants who will pay the current rent levels. We all know that empty or void periods, even if just a month or 2 can wipe out any profit which is made from property. It usually is better to keep a reliable tenant who lays a bit less than to take the risk of having a void period and then possibly a lower rent from an unknown tenant, who is equally likely to face employment issues in a few months.

So, here I probably wouldn't give notice. I probably would be speaking to the tenant and explaining that their lower rent IS costing me and from the 6 month point, a repayment plan will be needed, so they are having a rent pause not a holiday. If they don't feel able to agree to that, then I would seriously consider giving them notice. I would have to decide if into the long term (bearing in mind more mortgage over the longer term) if I could suck up the loss and if the rent they would pay,mwoukdnwouldnt cover my costs and be better than the risks of void periods or problem tenants. It might still be better to keep them.

WombatChocolate · 12/08/2020 09:08

In an uncertain market, essentially, 80% of the rent received from reliable people, is probably better than facing void periods and new uncertain tenants, who also could easily find they can't pay in a few months.

It might feel wrong to be 'subbing' them and not receiving the full rent behind a few months, but it's probably the best financial choice for yourself at the moment, plus helps them too. Clear written communication, with regular reviews of the situation are definitely required, along with making clear it does cost you more I. The long term.

CookieMumsters · 12/08/2020 09:19

It would seem very risky to me to kick them out. It sounds like they've been good tenants to this point, and communicated when they did have a problem.

If they dont have an income, it may be very difficult for them to find somewhere else so no matter how much they want to leave when you ask so you'll give them a good reference it simply may not be an option for them. I would work under the assumption youd have to force them out.

wouldn't it be a good idea to kick out the current ones and get some white collar workers with secure jobs

This does sound ideal for you, but in reality again may not be so easy at present.

I'm very risk averse with my rental property. I think I'd try to work with them, but you're right that you are effectively subbing them now.

C8H10N4O2 · 12/08/2020 09:19

Tenants are not 'paying the landlords mortgage' - they are paying rent for receiving the benefits of living in a property

Both are true.

It makes better long term business sense to keep reliable tenants than, as you say, risk voids or problem tenants.

The problem with many UK hobby landlords is that they don't treat it as a long term business investment and good tenants as a key part of that asset. I've known too many hobby landlords who wouldn't know how to run a business if you gave them a handbook.
They will say they want a long term business/retirement fund but then think short term and maximise the profit right now, or have insufficient funding to ride out a low few months. That is not a sustainable business model for them, and unlike many other smalll businesses peoples' homes depend on them getting it right.

dontdisturbmenow · 12/08/2020 09:21

In my experience (most) people respond in kind to how they are treated, so treat a tenant well by providing good quality accommodation at a reasonable price, fixing issues promptly etc and they in turn will look after the property, pay on time, allow access when requested at reasonable notice for reasonable reasons etc
Sadly, many LLs have learned that this a very naive view. This was exactly what I thought when I first became a LL. I had been a tenant for many years before and not once had an issue with my LL. I got beaten once, still thought it was as luck. After it happened a second time, this time much worse, I learned that being a good, fair, prompt acting LL did in no way guarantee you that your tenants will act the sane back.

I know a couple of LL’s and I don’t think they’re getting rents two to three times the cost of their mortgages
Of course they are not but it's better to believe this to justify hating LLs. I make no money out of my property from rent. That's because over 30% of it goes into tax, yes, that thing that helps people get hb....by the time the mortgage is paid, and 20% is set aside for repairs, decoration, fees, potential non payment, there's nothing left and the property is only an investment no different to the money being in bank except that this way, it actually help some people who are happy to live in such property but can't afford to buy.

As a LL, your mortgage has nothing whatsoever to do with your tenants
100% agree, but why should her tenants financial troubles have anything to do with her? It goes both ways.

PatriciaPerch · 12/08/2020 09:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ballsdeep · 12/08/2020 09:23

Op I feel sick reading this. It's their home. You aren't out of pocket so I don't see the problem! Please don't be a horrible landlord and turf them out.

ThisLittleLady · 12/08/2020 09:26

Just to be clear, absolutely no ones job is secure. No ones.

UsedUpUsername · 12/08/2020 09:27

People like you give LL's a bad name. They should downsize because their current LL is ripping them off?

They should downsize because of a change in financial circumstances. They cannot depend on the good graces of their LL forever, and it’s better that they make other arrangements rather than prolonging the inevitable.

You are making them homeless. You are kicking them out knowing they are currently in no position to get a decent rental anywhere else due to their job situation

What hyperbole. Right now they are paying 80% of their rent, so they could easily find a new place with lower rent. According to everyone here, LLs are desperate to find new tenants right now, and with good references from OP (assuming they leave without a fight) they can make those arrangements!

The OP could, but didn't and now wants to punish her very good tenants for it

Ummm, she actually did give them a break for several months without expectation that she be paid back, so yes, in fact, she did give them a break.

dontdisturbmenow · 12/08/2020 09:31

Why is it such anathema to even consider that, should the tenants' monthly rent leave a temporary shortfall in your monthly mortgage payment for the property, which you then have to make up from your own funds, you are still in a very fortunate position in your longer term goal of owning a house outright at relatively minimal cost to yourself?
That statement is pathetic. People don't opt to rent to be kind to LLs and want to support them financially. They rent because they want a roof over their heads or above house they otherwise can't afford to buy. They do it for their selfish reasons. Nothing wrong with this at all.

That doesn't mean that LLs should have a responsibity towards tenants whose personal circumstances they hardly know. Many LLs were tenants themselves once upon a time just as many current tenants will end up LLs one day.

I'm so tired of this all 'tenants are poor victims of circumstances above their control whilst LLs are lucky bastards who just got lucky'.

This certainly wasn't my circumstances in any way, yet because I'm LL, I'm labelled as such automatically. Envy really brings the worse in people.

UsedUpUsername · 12/08/2020 09:31

@IrishMamaMia

100 per cent agree with the poster who said this 'But they are kind of subbing you in the long term by paying your mortgage.' Have you ever read or watched 'A Christmas Carol' OP? There's a very similar character to you in it Wink
They don’t have to pay anything when the roof springs a leak or pipes burst or when the fridge gives out.

There are far more costs to home ownership than the mortgage and you really don’t seem to understand that.

The decision whether to rent vs buy is based on far more than whether you’ve scraped up a deposit. Many choose to continue renting rather than take a risk on a home that can tank their finances (see all the posts about selling property on here ....)

KenDodd · 12/08/2020 09:32

As the landlord tax has come in my margins are now wafer thin.

In that case you shouldn't be a LL, unless you have other properties that are cross subsidizing this one as a new investment. Being a LL is a business, you say you are operating on wafer thin margins and yet are planning on booting out good reliable tenants, in the middle of a pandemic and recession, rather than take a 20% hit on the rent? Bad, bad business decision. Setting aside the morality of making these people homeless, thinking this is a wise business decision is laughable. How long have you been a LL op?

TooLittleTooLate80 · 12/08/2020 09:34

What's the obsession with white collar workers? Every circumstance is different. White collar workers are the only jobs in danger at my place of work for example.

Jihhery · 12/08/2020 09:43

Like others, I'm disappointed at the OP's attitude.

I'm not sure what you're hoping to gain from this as you clearly don't care if anyone thinks you're being unreasonable.

dontdisturbmenow · 12/08/2020 09:43

In that case you shouldn't be a LL
Haha, you can't win! If you make a good profit, you are vilified for being greedy and making money off the back of poor innocent people.

If you say you don't make a profit, you're told that you're an idiot for being a LL in the first place.

What is so wrong in seeing that LLs can be good people not in it to make as much money as possible from Pepe less fortunate and just satisfied (as they should be) to consider it an investment for retirement in the same way other people pay into a pension scheme.