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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think about kicking out (good) tenants?

394 replies

pctmmn · 11/08/2020 13:36

I've had them for over three years and never missed a payment. But in April they said they were struggling so offered a 1/5th rent discount for three months. When this ended they asked for another three months. It doesn't affect my bottom line has I've taken out a 6 month mortgage holiday and the payments won't increase when they start again as it's added to the term.

I've been able to build up a bit of cash, but one works at a hotel and the other manages a resterant.

Would I be unreasonable to ask them to confirm the full rent needs to be paid for September else I'll give them notice? I really want someone in there paying the full rent and it feels like I'm subbing them right now.

OP posts:
zaffa · 12/08/2020 09:52

We gave our tenant a free month when he was hospitalised at the beginning of the pandemic and only paid statutory and we have made it clear to the letting agent that we are open to negotiation if he has further difficulties. No one wants to lose money but we will reduce his rent if he struggles or consider a mortgage break if we have to (although I'm very much against one and would rather make up his shortfall from our savings as it would be cheaper long term). We aren't professional landlords and DH has been made redundant so it's not that the money isn't needed or has no value, but he has been a good tenant who pays his rent and fell into a difficult situation. I wouldn't want to pile on additional pressure when instead we could both shoulder e burden a little and get a better long term outcome (I'd much rather not have an empty property and I'd also much rather not have him trying to recover from a severe illness and also worry about being made homeless - I'm sure he would prefer to know his home remains his home through a difficult recovery period and beyond).
Technically I don't think that you can't do what you want to; but I would rather have a paying bird in the hand (even if payment is reduced) in these tricky times.

SoPanny · 12/08/2020 09:57

So are you going to have a conversation with them OP?

zaffa · 12/08/2020 09:57

Also to be clear DH was a very white collar worker and his company have done many rounds of redundancy (way before COVID). I work in finance and so has mine - so please don't think we are any safer in our white collar working world.
These are unprecedented times. We are all in this one together and frankly no one is safe so be careful what you wish for...

IncrediblySadToo · 12/08/2020 10:00

@Hollyhocksarenotmessy

I an a tenant moving shortly. I've been a great tenant. I always pay rent on time, I look after the property as though it were my own, I love where I live, I get on with my neighbours. Landlord is getting arsey, so I'm off. Who knows what the new tenant will be like?
What is your LL getting arsey about?
userbbb · 12/08/2020 10:00

I don't have a problem with LLs in general & they serve a purpose however people like the OP who don't understand that it's a proper business give LLs a bad name.

Playmysong · 12/08/2020 10:10

@pctmmn “Don't be stupid, I haven't pocketed the mortgage holiday. I've used it to boost my reserve funds” Confused

I would call that pocketing the mortgage holiday! How can using it to boost your reserve funds NOT be pocketing the money??

The whole idea behind the mortgage holiday for landlords, was to pass this benefit on to tenants who were struggling! It was not intended to be used for the landlord to line their own pockets! A 20% reduction in rent means that they have still paid you 80% of their rent, while you haven’t paid any of your mortgage. You have pocketed that 80%!

By the way, interest will build up during your mortgage holiday, so you will end up paying more.

WombatChocolate · 12/08/2020 10:39

Playmysong

But as you as say, the LL will still have to pay their mortgage with increased interest......so in that sense they haven't 'pocketed' the mortgage holiday, because in time, MORE will come from their pocket than if they hadn't taken it.

The reality of what has happened here is the tenant has had lower rent (no plan for the reduction to be paid back) but the Landlord will incur HIGHER costs overall. Yes, they haven't paid the mortgage right now, but overall they will pay more. Therefore, the tenant has gained at the LLs expense.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, just the reality. Lots of people seem to think the mortgage holiday is a free gift of money to LLs. It isn't. It is a temporary reprieve which costs them more long term.

Some people seem to think that LLs should sub tenants in difficulty because they are usually wealthier people. However, no-one applies this to other sectors of the economy. No-one suggests that Tesco should give less affluent customers free shopping or reduced shopping for a month, because its shareholders can afford it and are using that revenue to pay their mortgages. No one suggests that the window cleaner should clean windows for free if people struggle to pay, during this period, or that Marks and Soencer should give free school uniforms to children of workers who have been furloughed, because they can afford it and the furloughed or redundant workers can't.

There are 2 separate issues here.

One is the question of whether LLs have a duty to supply property to tenants at below market rents, which may well incur losses for them, when a tenant faces financial hardship.
The second is whether it is financially better for a LL to accept lower rent from known, reliable tenants, rather than face the risks of voids and uncertain tenants in a difficult market.

Personally, I think the answer to Q1 is that there is probably a short term responsibility to do this during a crisis such as Covid. However, I think any responsibility in this area is pretty short term and if giving rent discounts is resulting in losses for the landlord, they need to consider that and as long as everything is communicated clearly and compassionately, it would be reasonable to give the 3 months required notice from late August, if all other payment options (such as longer term payment plan) have been explored. It won't be in anyone's interests if the property is repossessed.

With regard to the second question, it may well be better to keep tenants on paying lower rent, in the current climate. This wouldn't normally be the case, but might be now. Some rental income, which may well cover most costs if the landlord might be seen as preferable to a void and then Unknown tenants who might also soon struggle to pay.

Personally I would be keeping the tenants beyond their 6 month rent reduction for a further period of rent reduction, because of the answer to Q2. I would hope to arrange a plan for them to re- pay some of the owed rent beyond the 6 month period, understanding the cost their lower rent has to me. I would hope they could appreciate I had subbed their rent whilst long term needing to pay my full mortgage and more interest, plus my flexibility and would be able to understand why I needed to ask them to do this and see it as reasonable.

In this scenario, most tenants want to pay and feel that having signed up at a certain rent level, they should pay and must pay if they can. I take this view. Some tenants see that if there is any opportunity to pay less, it should be seized, regardless of what they signed up to pay or regardless of ability to pay. There can be wide variations on whether tenants see an agreement with a Lamdlord as something to stick to, or if they think that Landlords are fair game to try and avoid paying rent to. I think some people like to de-humanise Landlords and use the fact they have property as a way to justify avoiding elements of the contract, without feeling it is wrong. I am not talking about the current Covid situation, when clearly lots of people have genuinely been thrown into difficulty, but in usual times, when some tenants will always look for loopholes or ways to escape paying full rent. Unfortunately, lots of people seem to support them in these endeavours, purely on the basis that the Landlord owns property, so seems to deserve it, whilst a tenant without property seems morally entitled to any action to avoid paying rent. There can be a convenient forgetting of the legal and binding agreements which tenants choose to sign up to.

JammyGem · 12/08/2020 10:45

OP I am shocked at your posts. So little compassion, and freely admitting that you don't give a stuff about your tenants, only your bottom line. You're the worst kind of landlord, and give all the good ones a bad name.

pctmmn · 12/08/2020 11:00

@JammyGem

OP I am shocked at your posts. So little compassion, and freely admitting that you don't give a stuff about your tenants, only your bottom line. You're the worst kind of landlord, and give all the good ones a bad name.
I really can't win. I sub their rent and agree to a large discount that doesn't need to be repaid and I still get told I have no compassion Confused I'm now just saying I can't carry on subbing their housing and if they can't afford what they chose to contract themselves into paying it's time to move on after 6 months.
OP posts:
pctmmn · 12/08/2020 11:03

@KenDodd

As the landlord tax has come in my margins are now wafer thin.

In that case you shouldn't be a LL, unless you have other properties that are cross subsidizing this one as a new investment. Being a LL is a business, you say you are operating on wafer thin margins and yet are planning on booting out good reliable tenants, in the middle of a pandemic and recession, rather than take a 20% hit on the rent? Bad, bad business decision. Setting aside the morality of making these people homeless, thinking this is a wise business decision is laughable. How long have you been a LL op?

Tesco and all other supermarkets only make a small margin on their food, should they all just give up because their buisness doesn't make sense if customers all demand a 20% discount Confused

As said, I'm paying off the mortgage. In a couple of years I will be mortgage free, so Obviously I'm doing very well at it!

OP posts:
pctmmn · 12/08/2020 11:04

@SoPanny

So are you going to have a conversation with them OP?
Yes, drafting a note now to check they'll all ready to pay 100% of the next rent due.
OP posts:
witheringrowan · 12/08/2020 11:07

Your use of "subbing them 20%" highlights your lack of understanding of the current situation. There is no set rent that you are entitled to. You could very easily find, depending on the local situation (increasing unemployment, fewer students, less tourism, fewer international workers etc) that the market rent for your property is already 20% off where it was at the start of the year. Rental growth correlates with income growth - if there's no wage increase and people are losing their jobs, rents will fall because the market cannot support the previous levels.

Add this extension to chrome chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/property-log/jccihedpilhidcbkconacnalppdeecno/related?hl=en-GB and you'll see how much listings have had to reduce asking rents.

PatriciaPerch · 12/08/2020 11:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pctmmn · 12/08/2020 11:17

@witheringrowan

Your use of "subbing them 20%" highlights your lack of understanding of the current situation. There is no set rent that you are entitled to. You could very easily find, depending on the local situation (increasing unemployment, fewer students, less tourism, fewer international workers etc) that the market rent for your property is already 20% off where it was at the start of the year. Rental growth correlates with income growth - if there's no wage increase and people are losing their jobs, rents will fall because the market cannot support the previous levels.

Add this extension to chrome chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/property-log/jccihedpilhidcbkconacnalppdeecno/related?hl=en-GB and you'll see how much listings have had to reduce asking rents.

No rent I'm entitled to. Is this a joke?

They are legally due for the amount of rent they chose to sign up to!

What kind of make believe world do you live in. I guess there's no set amount of debt due on the property when I signed up to the mortgage and the Halifax should just let me off it🤣

OP posts:
pctmmn · 12/08/2020 11:18

@PatriciaPerch

seriously, legally you cannot serve a section 21 until 24th August (if the government don't change their mind on this) and you have to give 3 months notice - not 2 as the section 21 occurred after March 26th-which will take them to the 24th Nov. So even if they moved out 24th Nov (unlikely) by the time you've cleaned the property, done any maintenance work, you can basically write December off as no one is going to move just before Christmas unless they are desperate (so maybe not the right kind of tenant you'd want) so you've lost a months rent straight away.
That's why I'm having the thoughts now about eviction and to serve at the end of this month.
OP posts:
Thewheelsfelloffthebus · 12/08/2020 11:29

No rent I'm entitled to. Is this a joke?

I think you misunderstand what people are saying to you. What if you turf them out and the market has dropped by 20%. That’s what the PP means.

You need to do your own viability assessment. Do the maths - will a 2 month void be more than the reduced rent? Will you actually be able to achieve the same rent that your tenants are currently paying?

I’m a landlord and a tenant so I do get it. But a cautionary tale - I moved out of a rented property last October as I had asked for. £50 rent reduction (I felt I was paying way over the odds). Landlord refused I moved out. The property is still void and now on Rightmove for less than I asked for as a reduction.

So for that £600/year drop - the landlord has lost about £22k and counting!

That’s an extreme example and at the high end of the market. But if they’re paying 80% rent and paying it on time - you’re going to take a risk of actually having less income. It will only take 2 months of void and a slight drop in the rental and you’ll be worse off.

userbbb · 12/08/2020 11:31

@pctmmn did you misunderstand @witheringrowan post? Yes you agreed a certain amount of rent with your current tenants but that doesn't mean you will get the same amount with new tenants does it? It's dictated by the market.

There is a set amount of debt on the property based on your mortgage agreement however that amount doesn't change even if the house value drops.

Malin52 · 12/08/2020 11:32

All the handwringing about the increase in interest as a result of a mortgage holiday! Poor OP!!

Even if the OPs payments were £3000 pcm the extra interest accumulated would be a couple of hundred. However you end up with a free house at the end of it worth hundreds of thousands. Paid for by someone else. Pass on the benefits of your payment holiday and they might be in a better position in a few months.

KenDodd · 12/08/2020 11:34

How long have you been a LL op?
You say you are due to pay off the mortgage in a couple of years, this suggests you have been a LL a long time, unless maybe you're a 'accidental' LL and you used to live in the house? If you have been a LL a long time, so bought the house a long time ago, how come there is so little slack in your system? Are you overpaying a lot in your mortgage to shorten the term? Seems unlikely if you took a mortgage holiday.

pctmmn · 12/08/2020 11:41

@Thewheelsfelloffthebus

No rent I'm entitled to. Is this a joke?

I think you misunderstand what people are saying to you. What if you turf them out and the market has dropped by 20%. That’s what the PP means.

You need to do your own viability assessment. Do the maths - will a 2 month void be more than the reduced rent? Will you actually be able to achieve the same rent that your tenants are currently paying?

I’m a landlord and a tenant so I do get it. But a cautionary tale - I moved out of a rented property last October as I had asked for. £50 rent reduction (I felt I was paying way over the odds). Landlord refused I moved out. The property is still void and now on Rightmove for less than I asked for as a reduction.

So for that £600/year drop - the landlord has lost about £22k and counting!

That’s an extreme example and at the high end of the market. But if they’re paying 80% rent and paying it on time - you’re going to take a risk of actually having less income. It will only take 2 months of void and a slight drop in the rental and you’ll be worse off.

But the market hasn't dropped. Things are still being snapped up shortly if they're nice properties, and mine is.

This town is dominated by a few big companies and I know they have no plans for more redundancies. They've instead let go of contractors from people I know that work there.

That's why I want to remarket and get someone in now at 100% because as the furlough ends in the winter there might be a reduction in rents and it hasn't happened yet. If I get a white collar in with a secure job on a years contract I'll be shielded.

OP posts:
pctmmn · 12/08/2020 11:44

@KenDodd

How long have you been a LL op? You say you are due to pay off the mortgage in a couple of years, this suggests you have been a LL a long time, unless maybe you're a 'accidental' LL and you used to live in the house? If you have been a LL a long time, so bought the house a long time ago, how come there is so little slack in your system? Are you overpaying a lot in your mortgage to shorten the term? Seems unlikely if you took a mortgage holiday.
I've explained several times it's the landlord tax section 24. Even with that I break even with a decent amount to cover repairs so my buisness is still very successful even if it doesn't return a large proffit.
OP posts:
Thewheelsfelloffthebus · 12/08/2020 11:44

But your property won’t be vacated until November (at the earliest) anyway?
NO ONE has a secure job! Not sure why you keep banging on about a years contract - that means sod all.

KenDodd · 12/08/2020 11:44

But a cautionary tale - I moved out of a rented property last October as I had asked for. £50 rent reduction (I felt I was paying way over the odds). Landlord refused I moved out. The property is still void and now on Rightmove for less than I asked for as a reduction.

So for that £600/year drop - the landlord has lost about £22k and counting!

Evicting these tenants is very likely a bad business decision, most of the LL on here seem to agree. You seem determined to kick out these good tenants though, for the morality of making them homeless during a pandemic and recession for the (unlikely) change that you'll get a bit more money, I have very little sympathy if it all goes wrong for you. Besides, you might get lucky, find 'white collar' top quality tenants willing to pay premium rent (during a pandemic and recession) who will rent long term.

Whiskyinajar · 12/08/2020 11:46

I think as others have said you need to do the maths and see if evicting your tenants will make you any better off over all.

I've been a landlord (never again) and a tenant.

When we moved from our last property for job reasons the landlord couldn't let it for months.

Obviously it might be better for you if you're in a high demand area but be wary...if they've been good tenants up until now then it might well be worth hanging on to them. I had the tenants from hell though so am a bit influenced by that.

pctmmn · 12/08/2020 11:47

@KenDodd

But a cautionary tale - I moved out of a rented property last October as I had asked for. £50 rent reduction (I felt I was paying way over the odds). Landlord refused I moved out. The property is still void and now on Rightmove for less than I asked for as a reduction.

So for that £600/year drop - the landlord has lost about £22k and counting!

Evicting these tenants is very likely a bad business decision, most of the LL on here seem to agree. You seem determined to kick out these good tenants though, for the morality of making them homeless during a pandemic and recession for the (unlikely) change that you'll get a bit more money, I have very little sympathy if it all goes wrong for you. Besides, you might get lucky, find 'white collar' top quality tenants willing to pay premium rent (during a pandemic and recession) who will rent long term.

I doubt many of the people claiming to be LL actually are.

And it would be silly to assume the current tenants will keep on paying as one is unemployed and the others furlough will be ending soon. It's a big risk either way!

OP posts:
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