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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think about kicking out (good) tenants?

394 replies

pctmmn · 11/08/2020 13:36

I've had them for over three years and never missed a payment. But in April they said they were struggling so offered a 1/5th rent discount for three months. When this ended they asked for another three months. It doesn't affect my bottom line has I've taken out a 6 month mortgage holiday and the payments won't increase when they start again as it's added to the term.

I've been able to build up a bit of cash, but one works at a hotel and the other manages a resterant.

Would I be unreasonable to ask them to confirm the full rent needs to be paid for September else I'll give them notice? I really want someone in there paying the full rent and it feels like I'm subbing them right now.

OP posts:
WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 12/08/2020 15:39

just ignore all the nasty comments on this thread. They come from people who have absolutely no understanding of the concept of business.

Didn't OP make comments about the business 'not making a profit' purely based on a month-on-month basis (during a worldwide financial crisis) and apparently not understanding the whole picture of a long-term investment?

Also, I haven't seen more than a handful of possibly 'nasty' comments. People aren't being nasty just by strongly disagreeing with you. Neither does choosing to run your business according to what you consider to be ethical principles render you a bad or foolish businessperson.

pctmmn · 12/08/2020 16:02

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

just ignore all the nasty comments on this thread. They come from people who have absolutely no understanding of the concept of business.

Didn't OP make comments about the business 'not making a profit' purely based on a month-on-month basis (during a worldwide financial crisis) and apparently not understanding the whole picture of a long-term investment?

Also, I haven't seen more than a handful of possibly 'nasty' comments. People aren't being nasty just by strongly disagreeing with you. Neither does choosing to run your business according to what you consider to be ethical principles render you a bad or foolish businessperson.

Eh no, I said the exact opposite. That I'm not looking to make a profit right now and am concentrating on paying off the mortgage.

I think I understand very well what a long term investment is 🤣

OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 12/08/2020 16:12

To the person who said the onus for communication lies with the tenants, I don’t agree.

Op as LL wants her rental business to work. Being proactive in communication is always vital for this - YOU drive it by communicating.

These tenants asked for a rent reduction and were given it. They asked for a further 3 months and were given it. This was all during extraordinary times, acknowledged by government support to help people get through and maintain stability. The usual law about notice for eviction has been chNged by it not being possible for several months and then 3 months not 2 being needed from the end of Aug.

With all these changes in regulations and support, no-one could assume any tenant would be sure of what the LLs next steps would be, if they hadn’t been explicitly stated. Saying tenants must know eviction is coming is wrong. Lots of LLs are extending flexibility and will do so for months. There is no certainty and previous rules and expectations have been thrown up in the air.

Op needs to recognise this huge disruption to norms of eviction, rent reduction requests and LL response.

What had the tenant actually heard? Yes, you can have a rent reduction for 3 months
Yes, you can have another 3 month reduction given your circumstances.
Have they been explicitly told, that at the end of that period there will be no further reduction but notice will be given? If not, I suggest serving notice now, will indeed be a bombshell and tenants of 3 years who have always paid their rent, including the lower agreed rent, meeting the terms agreed with the landlord, don’t deserve it.

There might come a time when it is right to serve notice. The pandemic climate MUST be considered when doing this in the same way all businesses must consider it and adapt how they carry out difficult actions during it. It doesn’t mean eviction will never happen, but it should mean that the timescale when this is served should be made very clear. There should be no bombshells and if eviction hadn’t previously been identified as a possibility in an explicit way, given LLs have been strongly encouraged and supported to be flexible, it would be a bombshell.....and I think unacceptable.

There are LLs who were about to evict non-paying tenants who trash their houses back in March who are still waiting. Feel sorry for them. Everyone’s a loser during Covid and we all need some element of patience and compassion in our business dealings at the moment, even if the difficult choices can’t be avoided.

So Op, think really carefully about how much of your planning to evict has been in your head and how much has been spelled out. Make sure any actions have been spelled out in advance because of these changed circumstances due to law and circumstance.

Your tenants probably think you’re a good landlord. You have been flexible on rent for 6 months. If at some point they have to go, it would be good if they can say ‘well she was always fair and made clear in advance just how long she could be flexible for’ rather than
‘She seemed such a good landlord, saying she had got a mortgage holiday and being willing to give us a rent reduction. It all seemed fine and that it could be ongoing until we were sorted out, but then one day out of the blue we just got told she was serving notice. We had no idea she was about to do that and were devastasted’.

Think about what has actually been said. Make no assumptions about their understanding of what’s coming next unless you’ve said it in words and sent it by email, with a sesnsinle timescale given the pandemic.

genteelwoman · 12/08/2020 16:19

My brother rents and is a good tenant as you describe and prefers long term. He is in Central London so rent is pricey. He found his previous flat after a dip in the market due to Brexit and stayed 3 years plus. When COVID happened, his landlady hiked the rent and he tried to negotiate a lower rent to reflect the market rents and she refused. He put his notice and moved to Zone 2/3 for a 18 month lease in a bigger place at- I kid you not- HALF the rent. His old place has been empty since May. She has dropped the rent twice. Worse there is a bit of an exodus out of London as people want better work/life balance.

Don't over play your hand.

Whiskyinajar · 12/08/2020 16:30

I do see your point here OP, it can’t continue forever . It sounds like they don’t need the size of property you are renting on any case.

I mean if they can meet the rent then fine but if they can’t then downsizing would be a sensible option for them.

KenDodd · 12/08/2020 16:39

Another factor here, if you're planning to evict them at Christmas we could very well be at a second covid peak, market might be at a standstill. The OP doesn't sound very experienced as a LL (although says she only has a couple of years left on this mortgage, suggesting she does have long term experience) or at least it sounds like she's had a easy ride so far and never been at the sharp end. Added to that, very little slack in her numbers...

LilOldMe · 12/08/2020 16:40

I'm ... concentrating on paying off the mortgage.

Apart from the mortgage holiday, of course.

KenDodd · 12/08/2020 16:46

Why are you posting here OP?
It sounds like your mind was already made up.

FastFood · 12/08/2020 17:05

@genteelwoman

My brother rents and is a good tenant as you describe and prefers long term. He is in Central London so rent is pricey. He found his previous flat after a dip in the market due to Brexit and stayed 3 years plus. When COVID happened, his landlady hiked the rent and he tried to negotiate a lower rent to reflect the market rents and she refused. He put his notice and moved to Zone 2/3 for a 18 month lease in a bigger place at- I kid you not- HALF the rent. His old place has been empty since May. She has dropped the rent twice. Worse there is a bit of an exodus out of London as people want better work/life balance.

Don't over play your hand.

Same situation for me (long-term tenant). I asked a small compensation because half of the flat wasn't usable for over a month, and because of that, I had been unable to find a flatmate before lockdown, so I was stuck on my own with the full rent.

This has been refused by the LL.
Fine, I kept paying full rent, because luckily, I could.

6 weeks ago, he said that he wouldn't renew the lease with me. I always paid my rent, the flat is clean, I've always been accommodating with inspections and repairs. So what you would call a good tenant.

Since then, the rent has dropped by £100 and still listed.
It's in London, zone 1.

So I think it's a bad idea to assume that you'll have another good tenant paying the full price OP.
Your flat may be empty for several months.

KenDodd · 12/08/2020 17:12

So I think it's a bad idea to assume that you'll have another good tenant paying the full price OP.
Your flat may be empty for several months.

She might get lucky. I think more likely she's going to learn the hard way.

CopperBeeches · 12/08/2020 17:13

FFS it is not a "holiday" . That was the govt's way of selling it to fools. It is a loan. You borrow the money from the bank to pay your mortgage. You then pay it back WITH additional interest.

If your repayments are £1000 per month you borrow £6,000. That covers 6 months' payments.

You could borrow it from anyone. Easier to borrow it from the bank you have your mortgage with.

It was introduced so that people did not default on their mortgages during lockdown.

Secondly the costs of buying and maintaining a property are HUGE. NOT just a mortgage. There is also risk and a degree of work and selling costs if your circumstances change.

lollyfog · 12/08/2020 17:14

I think more likely she's going to learn the hard way.

I do love a bit of Schadenfreude! 😜

heartsonacake · 12/08/2020 17:24

The problem is OP that on Mumsnet people are really jealous of landlords, hence the type of replies you’ve received on this thread.

They’re loathe to admit it though Grin

MilerVino · 12/08/2020 17:33

I asked a small compensation because half of the flat wasn't usable for over a month, and because of that, I had been unable to find a flatmate before lockdown, so I was stuck on my own with the full rent.

One place I lived in grew so damp that, after some particularly bad rain, part of the ceiling came down. I lived with a hole in the ceiling for months whilst the landlord dithered around about fixing it. Given that there was water coming through into the hallway you would think there might have been a rent reduction. No, he put the rent UP because he needed more money for repairs. I gave my statutory notice and left. I'm not having someone being that grasping. Place was empty for months after that.

Feedingthebirds1 · 12/08/2020 17:36

OP I don't know why you bothered posting a thread. It's clear that you are, and always were, going to charge them full rent. You just wanted lots of people to tell you that you were being perfectly reasonable, you weren't bothered about arguments for OR against.

So off you pop and do exactly that.

UsedUpUsername · 12/08/2020 17:38

I do love a bit of Schadenfreude!

🙄

Perdigal · 12/08/2020 17:41

Be prepared that the next tenants will get a reduced rate in the current market and possibly might take some time to get new tenants so you need to factor the lack of income as a possibility.
Sometimes it's better the devil you know!
We've been told by the estate agent my new London tenants will be getting a reduced rent due to the climate.

PersonaNonGarter · 12/08/2020 17:42

OP, you are doing great.

And no you are not ‘making them homeless’ you are serving notice and they can find a new home, possibly without a walk in closet and man-cave, but there it is.

I agree about the posters being jealous of LL. Ignore.

lollyfog · 12/08/2020 17:42

Why is it if you criticise or talk about a bad experience of renting = jealously? Plenty of people could be LLs but chose not to, for a myriad of reasons.

DopamineHits · 12/08/2020 17:43

Some of you are not going to chill until the OP gifts them her house as an early Christmas present Grin

Cosmos45 · 12/08/2020 17:48

@lollyfog - yes I criticised this decision and apparently I am jealous.. righty ho

(never mind the fact that I might rent out some properties myself)

WombatChocolate · 12/08/2020 17:50

Yes, some people are jealous and some people take the view that all Landlords are scum. Some seem to think all tenants should be able to love for free or if they fall on hard times, rent should always be waived indefinitely. They don't appreciate that in providing the property, landlords incur costs that have to be covered.

Personally I think things to do with mortgages are irrelevant as far as the tenant is concerned. It is up to the landlord to ensure they can cover their mortgage and have enough slack to cover void periods and all the other costs they incur. Like any business, those whose revenue doesn't cover all their costs plus some surplus for unforeseen issues, are not running their businesses very well.

However, as well as the Lamdlord haters on this thread, there are lots of other Landlords too (me included). Lots have pointed out the shades of grey that exist and emphasised how the times we live in have created a different market in terms of rules and regulations and quite simply obligations landlords have, which perhaps weren't the same before Covid. Most businesses are finding they are facing difficult situations and getting less revenue in and having to live with it and adapt.

These tenants have always done exactly what the LL asked if them. Before Covid they paid what wa agreed on time. When the rent reduction was agreed, they paid on time. At no point have they failed to do what was agreed with the Landlord and so to receive an eviction notice, having never broken the terms of their agreement seems harsh. If Op can't sustain the lower rent into the future, she should be saying so well in advance so the tenants have a chance to seriously look at their finances again and decide if they can stretch to paying it, or accept they will need to move on.

It might well be that into the future they will need to go somewhere cheaper. However, Op should think about the timescale carefully here. If dumping them in it just before Vhristmas can be avoided, that would be good to do. If maki g clear to them, when the last point reduced rent is possible before eviction notice is given (rather than just serving it) that would be good too. There is a better, decent way to handle it, and a rather callous unnecessary way. In these hard times, we should all try to deal with people decently and stretch kindness even in the business world. That isn't the same as saying reduced rent will be okay forever.

Although, as many point out, 20% is a small reduction, given that rents ar falling and the risk of voids is very present and Unknown tenants who may find they can't even pay 80%....so as well as doing it decently, considering if it's really financially beneficial to evict at any time this year needs serious consideration. Personally I wouldn't take the risk at the moment, but Op seems very keen to do so, unlike the many landlords on this thread.

Cosmos45 · 12/08/2020 17:51

@DopamineHits - I don't think anyone is suggesting the OP gifts the tenants anything but there is an attitude of weighing up the benefits of keeping model tenants who have always paid correctly on time previously versus kicking them out (OP's words) and trying to find new tenants.

Yes she has reduced the rent for them but she also might find during this pandemic she struggles to rent the flat out at the same value as she is now, it might lay empty for a while etc.

But, as someone else has said, she has made her mind up. Let's hope she gets equally good tenants in who are prepared to pay the rent she asks almost immediately after the other tenants have left eh?

MilerVino · 12/08/2020 17:54

'Oh you're just jealous' is the last refuge of the terminally insecure who have a funny feeling in the pit of their stomach that they might be doing something wrong, but really don't want to admit it.

lollyfog · 12/08/2020 17:54

@Cosmos45 it's such a lazy trope, all criticism = jealousy. Where does one draw the line, can I criticise Boris or does that mean I want to be him?

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