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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think about kicking out (good) tenants?

394 replies

pctmmn · 11/08/2020 13:36

I've had them for over three years and never missed a payment. But in April they said they were struggling so offered a 1/5th rent discount for three months. When this ended they asked for another three months. It doesn't affect my bottom line has I've taken out a 6 month mortgage holiday and the payments won't increase when they start again as it's added to the term.

I've been able to build up a bit of cash, but one works at a hotel and the other manages a resterant.

Would I be unreasonable to ask them to confirm the full rent needs to be paid for September else I'll give them notice? I really want someone in there paying the full rent and it feels like I'm subbing them right now.

OP posts:
userbbb · 12/08/2020 13:55

@WombatChocolate sounds sensible.

crazycatgal · 12/08/2020 13:55

I would have a conversation now about September's rent and see whether they will be able to pay the full rent.

pctmmn · 12/08/2020 13:55

@PatriciaPerch

I thought Rishi had implemented the mortgage breaks etc with this sort of scenario in mind though?

I knew this would happen though, every single Martin Lewis phone in since lockdown has had a landlord on moaning about not being able to evict their tenants etc etc etc

Not sure how the local authority are going to home all these people in need of emergency housing either. It was always a disaster waiting to happen

No they haven't. The mortgage payments are only a fraction of the total outgoings. Landlords could never give 6 months no rent.
OP posts:
year5teacher · 12/08/2020 13:56

@Sugarpea123

Housing shouldn't be a 'business'. You want money, work for it.
@Sugarpea123 yes, this is the thing, I actually feel like landlords quite often aren’t the best. There’s definitely good individual ones, but in general I feel like buying to let is unethical. The whole way our country is set up is ridiculous, it’s so expensive to buy property and it’s weighted against lower income people. Then landlords (some of them) can get so rich off other people’s money. It’s another of many reasons why I don’t support capitalism. It’s the way it is and I work with it (as a renter), but I’m not a fan.
pctmmn · 12/08/2020 13:56

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

Op this is always going to be contentious on here. Some folks think that landlords are scum of the earth and renters are doing them a favour by paying their mortgage off. They can’t see it as paying to live some place.

I’ve no problem at all with LLs – of course it’s a mutually beneficial agreement, although the cost of renting vs buying is heavily weighted in favour of the LL, who may or may not have helped to push up prices by buying houses to rent out.

I know a couple of LL’s and I don’t think they’re getting rents two to three times the cost of their mortgages

Of course they are not but it's better to believe this to justify hating LLs. I make no money out of my property from rent. That's because over 30% of it goes into tax, yes, that thing that helps people get hb....by the time the mortgage is paid, and 20% is set aside for repairs, decoration, fees, potential non payment, there's nothing left and the property is only an investment no different to the money being in bank except that this way, it actually help some people who are happy to live in such property but can't afford to buy.

I never said that the LL gets to keep all of the money that they receive in rent. Like most income, there will be tax to pay on it and other associated costs. I don’t hate good LLs at all – I was one for a decade. The fact is that it costs far more per month to rent a property than to buy the same property, if only you were able to get the deposit together and be accepted for a mortgage, which is something that many people aren’t privileged enough to be able to do. There is also the fact that, the more first-time buyer properties get snapped up by LLs, that will inevitably drive up prices and make the tenants even less able to afford to buy. I am in no way juxtaposing the two scenarios from a moral pov, but, taken to an extreme, the principle is a little like with ticket touts – they also often claim to be helping people to obtain tickets for events that had otherwise sold out immediately, but it was often to them that many of the tickets were sold in the first place. Of course, nobody needs to go to a concert, but we do all need a home.

Why is it such anathema to even consider that, should the tenants' monthly rent leave a temporary shortfall in your monthly mortgage payment for the property, which you then have to make up from your own funds, you are still in a very fortunate position in your longer term goal of owning a house outright at relatively minimal cost to yourself?

That statement is pathetic. People don't opt to rent to be kind to LLs and want to support them financially. They rent because they want a roof over their heads or above house they otherwise can't afford to buy. They do it for their selfish reasons. Nothing wrong with this at all.

That doesn't mean that LLs should have a responsibity towards tenants whose personal circumstances they hardly know. Many LLs were tenants themselves once upon a time just as many current tenants will end up LLs one day.

I'm so tired of this all 'tenants are poor victims of circumstances above their control whilst LLs are lucky bastards who just got lucky'.

This certainly wasn't my circumstances in any way, yet because I'm LL, I'm labelled as such automatically. Envy really brings the worse in people.

That’s completely misrepresenting me (and seems quite a confusing argument from a logic perspective based on the quote). I never said that a LL should run their business as a charity or as a kindness to their tenants, nor that the tenants are only renting to do the LL a big favour. I was referring to the crazy idea that many hobby/unrealistic LLs have, as in the quotes below, that renting out property is a short-term business plan, and that it only turns a profit if you are left with excess money every single month that you own it, right from the start. Many LLs who do understand how it works treat it as their pension. Paying any money into any form of a pension will not bring you much of/any short-term profit – indeed, it will usually cost you hard cash each month. You do it because, at the end of a long period of investment, you will (hopefully) start to receive a healthy income and/or have a property that you own outright. It’s just basic business planning. If you want to see an instant month-on-month return, becoming a LL is probably not the best idea.

By the way, I was a LL myself for a decade and I did quite well from it, so I neither hate nor envy myself.

I've explained several times it's the landlord tax section 24. Even with that I break even with a decent amount to cover repairs so my buisness is still very successful even if it doesn't return a large proffit.

It barely makes a profit after the landlord tax that has now come in.

I'm really confused by all this bold and italics 🤣
OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 12/08/2020 13:57

Did you tell them when you agreed the second 3 month reduction, that after this you expected full payment or would evict? I think very clear warning that this would be your next step is needed. It shouldn’t come out of the blue.

You might think it’s obvious, but it’s not. You always have to spell out next steps in advance to people.

pctmmn · 12/08/2020 13:57

@crazycatgal

I would have a conversation now about September's rent and see whether they will be able to pay the full rent.
Agree. That's what I'm doing
OP posts:
BluebellForest836 · 12/08/2020 13:57

@userbbb - Furlough won’t last forever, the same as OP discount won’t last forever.

The staff that are willingly taking reduced salaries... well that’s there choice. They have the choice to stay or find something else. The same as the tenants have a choice to pay full rent or find something else. A couple do not need a 3 bed house anyway.

Maybe they can find one of these under market value rate place that you spoke about if there not that unusual.

Bananabread8 · 12/08/2020 13:58

I wouldn’t just drop that bomb OP. They have been good tenants but also your not obligated as it’s a business from your point of view. I wouldn’t assume that they have the same mind set as you here that they should just up sticks and move some where else like your suggesting.

Perhaps have a conversation in a nice way and ask them about their job situation and their long term plan... Just explain you will need the full rent.

I agree with others about you may just get bad tenants after these ones!

pctmmn · 12/08/2020 13:58

@Sorberret

You sound like such a lovely person (and learn how to spell restaurant)
🙄🙄🙄
OP posts:
userbbb · 12/08/2020 14:00

@pctmmn so that means you didn't discuss it?
Why would it be common sense, plenty of LLs on here have said they are happy to secure tenants with a lower rent. My colleague negotiated a 15% off discount for staying another yr back in May & the LL bit her hand off.

userbbb · 12/08/2020 14:02

I assume your tenants were hoping to get back to "normal", be employed again & commence paying full rent, but it's taking longer then expected. They might just think you're one of the "good" LLs & have no clue an eviction is coming their way.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 12/08/2020 14:05

lots of tricky situations can be improved by communicating - that’s conversation which avoid the difficulties of misinterpretation that easily occur on paper/email. So conversation followed by emailed confirmation of discussion and agreement

Yes, I agree that could be a useful compromise - just so long as what's been agreed is down on paper somewhere

the best thing might be for the tenants to move out ... however there is no guarantee the OP will quickly find new tenants who are willing to pay the same amount

Agree with this too, and it's what I meant about weighing up all the pros and cons for everyone

Surely they must be aware eviction is very possible seeing as they haven't paid the full tent for 6 months!

Maybe, maybe not. You said they're decent people so they may well have realised this - they may even be sensible enough to be looking at more affordable rentals as we type
Alternatively, they may have seemed decent enough when the going was good, but now be thinking "well it's not our fault, and she can't get us out for ages even if we never pay again, so we'll stay right where we are because she's been a soft touch"

WombatChocolate · 12/08/2020 14:05

Some people think success in business comes down to being hard nosed and ignoring people and emotion.

It often comes down to being able to accurately judge changing situations and work flexibly with people and adapt to change. This is what this is all about for lots of sectors at the moment.

Shouting ‘it’s my right to be paid’ doesn’t achieve anything. It might normally be the situation, but acknowledging we are a a VERY different situation is key. Recalibrate. Think business decision in context of situation and these particular people and on context of a 3 year successful rental agreement. Don’t just think 80% rent in Sept no good.

If there will be a point when only 100% will do, give them at least 3 months warning eviction process will be started at that point. Don’t just launch it.

Keep talking. Keep explaining you want to help but need the money too. Keep discussing options and solutions. You might need severL different ones over several months to get through but these could well be the far better option for you than a rigid approach.

userbbb · 12/08/2020 14:06

@BluebellForest836 that didn't answer my question though did it?

And I didn't say anything about under market rate places as a new tenant did I?

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 12/08/2020 14:12

The provision of rental property is an important and legitimate part of how society functions, but it's so sad that so many LLs seem very lacking on the moral side of what is also a business relationship. Yes, it is often a very sound long-term financial investment, but an alarming number don't really seem to see their tenants as fully people or to respect the right that, although it's your house/flat, it's their home.

There is so much talk of evicting people from their homes - the OP title said 'kicking out' - whenever it suits you for them to just conveniently disappear. Homes for which they have to pay far more than do folk with mortgages for similar properties, who would be horrified at anybody suggesting that they should just be turfed out of their houses if their lender decided to spring-clean their balance sheets and lending accounts.

There was a thread a little while ago about the Wilsons, who, at one point, owned around 1,000 houses in Ashford and massively dominated the town's rental market, as well as hugely stifling the ability of FTBs to find anywhere to actually buy. Fergus Wilson strutted around his empire and made arbitrary rules about who he wanted as tenants - including no single mothers, no tradesmen and no Asian people who might 'make the house stink of curry' (ugh - and that's not at the curry).

Treating other humans as nothing more than a commodity to make you wealthier - cherry-picking the ones you prefer and discarding those you are prejudiced against; or renting to them initially but then arbitrarily deciding that you'd rather swap them for a different kind of person that you think might be nicer, as if they were fading old wallpaper, is just nasty in the extreme.

Bad/unreasonable/abusive etc tenants: fine, evict them and let them fully reap the consequences of their actions. Otherwise, please do treat other humans with the same basic respect that you'd like to be given yourself.

WombatChocolate · 12/08/2020 14:13

Shades of grey are often better than black and white.

Managing and negotiating them involves communication skills lots of people lack and an ability to explore and think about outcomes both broadly and long term. When people lack these abilities they often go for knee-jerk reactions, which seem out of the blue to people receiving them.

If I was this tenant and I get served a section 21 at the end of Aug, without the landlord having warned me at least a couple of months before that this would happen if there wasn’t a return to something pre-agreed, I would be shocked and horrified. As a LL everything takes months - it’s part of it, especially at the moment. Do nothing without communicating about what is happening now AND what will happen next in different scenarios. There should be no surprises and anything not explicitly stated previously is a surprise!

pctmmn · 12/08/2020 14:16

@WombatChocolate

Some people think success in business comes down to being hard nosed and ignoring people and emotion.

It often comes down to being able to accurately judge changing situations and work flexibly with people and adapt to change. This is what this is all about for lots of sectors at the moment.

Shouting ‘it’s my right to be paid’ doesn’t achieve anything. It might normally be the situation, but acknowledging we are a a VERY different situation is key. Recalibrate. Think business decision in context of situation and these particular people and on context of a 3 year successful rental agreement. Don’t just think 80% rent in Sept no good.

If there will be a point when only 100% will do, give them at least 3 months warning eviction process will be started at that point. Don’t just launch it.

Keep talking. Keep explaining you want to help but need the money too. Keep discussing options and solutions. You might need severL different ones over several months to get through but these could well be the far better option for you than a rigid approach.

Err I've been very flexible with giving a discount and not asking for it to be repaid.

Why are you trying to paint me as something I'm not??

Crazy to say to give 3 months notice for an eviction. That's effectively 6 months if they comply Confused wouldn't work at all.

OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 12/08/2020 14:16

Off out now. But will be interested when I return to hear what communication and timescales have been given to tenants and were given for different outcomes at the time and for the future. We’re the tenants ever expressly told eviction was on the cards?

PatriciaPerch · 12/08/2020 14:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

userbbb · 12/08/2020 14:17

including no single mothers, no tradesmen and no Asian people who might 'make the house stink of curry' (ugh - and that's not at the curry).

really?! Wow, that's disgusting.

AmICrazyorWhat2 · 12/08/2020 14:18

I’m glad you’re going to be talking with them ASAP And I hope it works out OK for both sides.
Personally, I still think you should try to hang onto your good tenants in this uncertain environment, I agree with PP’s that you run the risk of having an empty property for several months and/or getting new tenants who also fall into financial difficulties.

Once the pandemic’s under control- I think that will happen next year given the global efforts to find a vaccine-- the hospitality industry will come roaring back and your tenants will be OK. They may opt to stay for several more years with reliable incomes.

Just my twopence worth.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 12/08/2020 14:19

I'm really confused by all this bold and italics

There may be a better or clearer way (happy to learn if anybody has suggestions), but it's the easiest way I've found so far.

Bold is quoting what somebody else has said, italics are the original comment that their quote related to and normal type is my own additions.

userbbb · 12/08/2020 14:19

We’re the tenants ever expressly told eviction was on the cards?

Pretty sure that will be a no?

AmICrazyorWhat2 · 12/08/2020 14:20

Putin already claims that Russia’s developed a vaccine...although I wouldn’t take it.😒