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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think about kicking out (good) tenants?

394 replies

pctmmn · 11/08/2020 13:36

I've had them for over three years and never missed a payment. But in April they said they were struggling so offered a 1/5th rent discount for three months. When this ended they asked for another three months. It doesn't affect my bottom line has I've taken out a 6 month mortgage holiday and the payments won't increase when they start again as it's added to the term.

I've been able to build up a bit of cash, but one works at a hotel and the other manages a resterant.

Would I be unreasonable to ask them to confirm the full rent needs to be paid for September else I'll give them notice? I really want someone in there paying the full rent and it feels like I'm subbing them right now.

OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 12/08/2020 13:37

And I agree that tenant engagement is always important.

That said, LL engagement and communication during hard times is vital too and lots of tricky situations can be improved by communicating - that’s conversation which avoid the difficulties of misinterpretation that easily occur on paper/email. So conversation followed by emailed confirmation of discussion and agreement.

Op, how much of this chat and follow up email have you instigated and had? How have tenants responded?

Do you use an agency or do you deal with them directly?

Are you open to a solution that might keep them as tenants or set on eviction?

UsedUpUsername · 12/08/2020 13:37

I would just consider if it’s worth kicking people out who may really struggle to get back on their feet. They might really struggle to rent somewhere else

Alternatively, it might be better for them to find a cheaper place in the same area and give notice. They know that they can’t depend on a 20% discount forever (rents are falling, but not that fast), so it is better for them to leave with such a reduction in income and no prospects for that to change anytime soon.

No point in staying somewhere that is more house than they can afford. It does them no favours in the long run.

But as has been pointed out, OP has to be absolutely sure she can get renters at short notice. It’s a risk ....

BluebellForest836 · 12/08/2020 13:40

But this is a highly unusual situation, we are in a pandemic. Why do you think the government even introduced a furlough scheme, mortgage holidays, took the homeless off the streets, sent out care packages, etc?

It doesn’t matter that it’s an unusual situation. The OP is Still not a charity and shouldn’t be missing out on 20% any longer. They have already saved 2k in rent.
They can downgrade to a 1 bed flat if they can’t afford to pay full rent.

pctmmn · 12/08/2020 13:41

@Badjudgeofcharacter

Your attitude is vile. Kicking people out before Christmas. Karma is a bitch.
But they can't afford it. What difference does it make giving them notice in December other than January? Better they find somewhere that suits their budget sooner rather than later
OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 12/08/2020 13:41

Conversation followed by email confirming details is best when things are tricky or there actually is discussion to be had.

If the first you hear of eviction proveeedings is an email saying it’s a done deal, that suggests very poor communication, especially during. Pandemic.

Hard decisions have to be taken in business - there’s sometimes no getting away from it....but there is a human and right way to communicate and make them. It is incumbent on the business owner to recognise this and do it right, even if it’s harder.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 12/08/2020 13:41

So, if you contact them, and they assure you they are going to be able to afford the rent, @pctmmn - what then? Do you trust them (because they have been good tenants up to now) or not?

Obviously I don't know about the rental market where you are, but ds3 is in the process of finding a flat in Edinburgh, for his final year of university there, and he has found that rents have dropped significantly, and there are a plethora of flats available. A couple of years ago, he and a friend were looking for a flat, at this time of year, and every two bed flat that came up had multiple people applying for it - and he and his friend lost out to professional people every time, and it took over a month of couch surfing for them to find a flat to rent. The difference between the rental market then and now - in Edinburgh, which is a very popular place to live - is like night and day.

I do also wonder how you are going to ensure that the new tenants are as reliable as the current ones - you run the risk of getting rid of good tenants, and replacing them with ones who turn out to be nightmare tenants and either trash the house or just stop paying the rent. Isn't a bird in the hand better than a bird in the bush?

pctmmn · 12/08/2020 13:42

@UsedUpUsername

I would just consider if it’s worth kicking people out who may really struggle to get back on their feet. They might really struggle to rent somewhere else

Alternatively, it might be better for them to find a cheaper place in the same area and give notice. They know that they can’t depend on a 20% discount forever (rents are falling, but not that fast), so it is better for them to leave with such a reduction in income and no prospects for that to change anytime soon.

No point in staying somewhere that is more house than they can afford. It does them no favours in the long run.

But as has been pointed out, OP has to be absolutely sure she can get renters at short notice. It’s a risk ....

Totally agree, it's just Christmas and the sooner they get back on their feet the better for them. I can't keep on subbing them forever
OP posts:
pctmmn · 12/08/2020 13:42

@BluebellForest836

But this is a highly unusual situation, we are in a pandemic. Why do you think the government even introduced a furlough scheme, mortgage holidays, took the homeless off the streets, sent out care packages, etc?

It doesn’t matter that it’s an unusual situation. The OP is Still not a charity and shouldn’t be missing out on 20% any longer. They have already saved 2k in rent.
They can downgrade to a 1 bed flat if they can’t afford to pay full rent.

Thanks, great post
OP posts:
Sugarpea123 · 12/08/2020 13:42

Housing shouldn't be a 'business'. You want money, work for it.

pctmmn · 12/08/2020 13:43

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius

So, if you contact them, and they assure you they are going to be able to afford the rent, *@pctmmn* - what then? Do you trust them (because they have been good tenants up to now) or not?

Obviously I don't know about the rental market where you are, but ds3 is in the process of finding a flat in Edinburgh, for his final year of university there, and he has found that rents have dropped significantly, and there are a plethora of flats available. A couple of years ago, he and a friend were looking for a flat, at this time of year, and every two bed flat that came up had multiple people applying for it - and he and his friend lost out to professional people every time, and it took over a month of couch surfing for them to find a flat to rent. The difference between the rental market then and now - in Edinburgh, which is a very popular place to live - is like night and day.

I do also wonder how you are going to ensure that the new tenants are as reliable as the current ones - you run the risk of getting rid of good tenants, and replacing them with ones who turn out to be nightmare tenants and either trash the house or just stop paying the rent. Isn't a bird in the hand better than a bird in the bush?

Yes I'll trust them, they've earnt it. It's not in Edinburgh.
OP posts:
pctmmn · 12/08/2020 13:44

@Sugarpea123

Housing shouldn't be a 'business'. You want money, work for it.
This isn't a discussion to be had here. You want socialism, then move to another country.
OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 12/08/2020 13:46

So what level of contact have you made with them through the pandemic and what level of response have they made?

Have you previously made them aware that you are considering eviction or will this be the first they hear of it?

pctmmn · 12/08/2020 13:48

@WombatChocolate

So what level of contact have you made with them through the pandemic and what level of response have they made?

Have you previously made them aware that you are considering eviction or will this be the first they hear of it?

We've been in contact several times to firstly have a 3 month reduction that doesn't need to be repaid, then extended again for 3 months. But I'm putting my foot down for a 9 months reduced rent not to be repaid.

Surely they must be aware eviction is very possible seeing as they haven't paid the full tent for 6 months!

OP posts:
userbbb · 12/08/2020 13:48

@BluebellForest836 so do you think those businesses that have topped up their furloughed staff or hung on to people with reduced salaries as opposed to letting them go or had senior staff take the hit on salaries & bonuses are acting like charities?

Plenty of people I know pay under the market rate because they are good tenants. I did it as a student because the landlord lived abroad & he liked that we took care of the property for the 2 yrs we were there. It's not that unusual.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 12/08/2020 13:49

Another point that keeps being ignored among the "Poor tenants, the situation's unprecedented" posts is that OP's already down nearly £2k and is unlikely to get it all back
Yes it's important to do things properly and to weigh up the pros and cons all round, but just how much more do some expect her to give?

Insisting that LLs should behave, be regulated and be subject to various penalties as proper businesses is all very well - admirable even - but then it's not much use crying "couldn't they just ..." and expecting a more charitable approach if changed circumstances happen not to suit

userbbb · 12/08/2020 13:49

Surely they must be aware eviction is very possible seeing as they haven't paid the full tent for 6 months!

Did you tell them it was a risk when you agreed to the 20% discount?

pctmmn · 12/08/2020 13:51

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Another point that keeps being ignored among the "Poor tenants, the situation's unprecedented" posts is that OP's already down nearly £2k and is unlikely to get it all back Yes it's important to do things properly and to weigh up the pros and cons all round, but just how much more do some expect her to give?

Insisting that LLs should behave, be regulated and be subject to various penalties as proper businesses is all very well - admirable even - but then it's not much use crying "couldn't they just ..." and expecting a more charitable approach if changed circumstances happen not to suit

Exactly this, people are calling me horrible things even though I've given a significant discount for 6 months. You really can't win
OP posts:
pctmmn · 12/08/2020 13:52

@userbbb

Surely they must be aware eviction is very possible seeing as they haven't paid the full tent for 6 months!

Did you tell them it was a risk when you agreed to the 20% discount?

I think it's common sense that you risk being evicted if you can't afford the rent for 6 months.
OP posts:
PatriciaPerch · 12/08/2020 13:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 12/08/2020 13:52

Op this is always going to be contentious on here. Some folks think that landlords are scum of the earth and renters are doing them a favour by paying their mortgage off. They can’t see it as paying to live some place.

I’ve no problem at all with LLs – of course it’s a mutually beneficial agreement, although the cost of renting vs buying is heavily weighted in favour of the LL, who may or may not have helped to push up prices by buying houses to rent out.

I know a couple of LL’s and I don’t think they’re getting rents two to three times the cost of their mortgages

Of course they are not but it's better to believe this to justify hating LLs. I make no money out of my property from rent. That's because over 30% of it goes into tax, yes, that thing that helps people get hb....by the time the mortgage is paid, and 20% is set aside for repairs, decoration, fees, potential non payment, there's nothing left and the property is only an investment no different to the money being in bank except that this way, it actually help some people who are happy to live in such property but can't afford to buy.

I never said that the LL gets to keep all of the money that they receive in rent. Like most income, there will be tax to pay on it and other associated costs. I don’t hate good LLs at all – I was one for a decade. The fact is that it costs far more per month to rent a property than to buy the same property, if only you were able to get the deposit together and be accepted for a mortgage, which is something that many people aren’t privileged enough to be able to do. There is also the fact that, the more first-time buyer properties get snapped up by LLs, that will inevitably drive up prices and make the tenants even less able to afford to buy. I am in no way juxtaposing the two scenarios from a moral pov, but, taken to an extreme, the principle is a little like with ticket touts – they also often claim to be helping people to obtain tickets for events that had otherwise sold out immediately, but it was often to them that many of the tickets were sold in the first place. Of course, nobody needs to go to a concert, but we do all need a home.

Why is it such anathema to even consider that, should the tenants' monthly rent leave a temporary shortfall in your monthly mortgage payment for the property, which you then have to make up from your own funds, you are still in a very fortunate position in your longer term goal of owning a house outright at relatively minimal cost to yourself?

That statement is pathetic. People don't opt to rent to be kind to LLs and want to support them financially. They rent because they want a roof over their heads or above house they otherwise can't afford to buy. They do it for their selfish reasons. Nothing wrong with this at all.

That doesn't mean that LLs should have a responsibity towards tenants whose personal circumstances they hardly know. Many LLs were tenants themselves once upon a time just as many current tenants will end up LLs one day.

I'm so tired of this all 'tenants are poor victims of circumstances above their control whilst LLs are lucky bastards who just got lucky'.

This certainly wasn't my circumstances in any way, yet because I'm LL, I'm labelled as such automatically. Envy really brings the worse in people.

That’s completely misrepresenting me (and seems quite a confusing argument from a logic perspective based on the quote). I never said that a LL should run their business as a charity or as a kindness to their tenants, nor that the tenants are only renting to do the LL a big favour. I was referring to the crazy idea that many hobby/unrealistic LLs have, as in the quotes below, that renting out property is a short-term business plan, and that it only turns a profit if you are left with excess money every single month that you own it, right from the start. Many LLs who do understand how it works treat it as their pension. Paying any money into any form of a pension will not bring you much of/any short-term profit – indeed, it will usually cost you hard cash each month. You do it because, at the end of a long period of investment, you will (hopefully) start to receive a healthy income and/or have a property that you own outright. It’s just basic business planning. If you want to see an instant month-on-month return, becoming a LL is probably not the best idea.

By the way, I was a LL myself for a decade and I did quite well from it, so I neither hate nor envy myself.

I've explained several times it's the landlord tax section 24. Even with that I break even with a decent amount to cover repairs so my buisness is still very successful even if it doesn't return a large proffit.

It barely makes a profit after the landlord tax that has now come in.

WombatChocolate · 12/08/2020 13:52

And Op, I’m also a LL. Just wanted to say that.

I sympathise with your situation as each month at the moment I’m a bit anxious about if my rent will come in. I’m watching the local rental market and considering what to do if my tenants say they cNt pAy or can’t pay it all.

If it happens I’ve decided;

  • communicate very clearly.
  • establish exactly what they situation and finances are
-seek willingness from them to pay as much as possible and that anything unpaid will be paid over time if possible
  • build in 3 monthly reviews
  • keep them informed at every step
  • accept I may have less rent for the next year at least. I have decided I will bear up to 40% reduction for year. Yes it’s a big loss, but I’m taking the long view of my investment.
  • only serve notice if they have been given warning it will happen 3 months before serving, with clear explanation of what would be needed to make this happen.
userbbb · 12/08/2020 13:54

@Puzzledandpissedoff the best thing might be for the tenants to move out.

However there is no guarantee the OP will quickly find new tenants who are willing to pay the same amount. How long can the OP have it empty for? What happens if there is a local lockdown before she has secured new tenants?

Thewheelsfelloffthebus · 12/08/2020 13:54

Your attitude is so weird. You sound like you’ve been “oh yes fine” to your tenants and are now going straight to s.21.

Speak to them.

Also given the relatively small amount of rent you r “lost” (am making that £200/month) don’t be surprised if you don’t make it back. You’ll likely lose money over this but you seem too dense to realise it.

dontdisturbmenow · 12/08/2020 13:54

But if you don’t actually need that money I would just consider if it’s worth kicking people out who may really struggle to get back on their feet. They might really struggle to rent somewhere else
OP decision shouldn't be based on emotional dilemma. This is not her role or responsibity. This why we have government funded organisations to deal with people falling on hard time.

The question is whether she values them as tenants who previously paid religiously and trust they will be able to do again within the next few months.

We've been in contact several times to firstly have a 3 month reduction that doesn't need to be repaid, then extended again for 3 months
Who made contact? Them asking for a reduction and then to extend? Did they share any information on whether they were getting any support from the government and how they saw the future?

Sorberret · 12/08/2020 13:54

You sound like such a lovely person
(and learn how to spell restaurant)

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