To not understand why so many people view the wealth of others as public property

[FrogspawnSmoothie]

I've been noticing a lot of posts lately saying things like 'we need to sort out the wealth divide' etc and calling for the wealthy to pay for xyz 'because they can afford to', and I must say I've never quite shared this mentality.

I can see why people start to think this way when we're constantly told things like '99% of the nation's wealth is owned by 1% of the population', making it sound like they're hoarding resources. But the thing is, it's not a tin of biscuits given to the population which is now being hoarded by a few greedy chubsters. It may well have been foreign investment, for instance, which wasn't otherwise going to be invested in a UK business to then benefit the economy through taxes as it does. I go to work and earn my income, and that money is mine - I imagine most people would consider their paycheck to be their own.

I think of it like two farmers. One innovates in his processes and works out how to grow more apples with the same resources. He then reinvests his extra profit into better equipment and buys more land. Eventually, he owns 75% of the apples in the town, despite being only one of many farmers. I'm not convinced he now needs to start giving his apples to the other disgruntled farmers who envy his wealth, especially as he's now paying much more tax.

I'll admit it's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it (I'm no economist) but I'm not convinced that all the people moaning about the rich have given it a particularly nuanced consideration either. I was listening to some prat of a manbunned barista banging on about socialism and 'redistribution of wealth' in Costa today, and gotta admit I just thought to myself 'sounds like you should've worked harder at school, mate.' 🤷‍♀️

The if I can anyone can idea is flawed.

As an analogy a top Hollywood actor might say anyone can, live your dream etc but a better reality is to assess the statistical reality of making it. Then consider what makes you likely to be that .00 percent.

Same for businesses, not everyone will be running after two, five years. Statistics show this,

As for the issue of 000s of properties, bought by foreign investors, lying empty, you could consider a property purchase tax for non-residents/non-nationals of up to 100% as some countries do

Ironically, after years of Brown/Blair ignoring this issue, it's the Tories who've started to deal with it, firstly with the ATED tax on properties owned by a corporate wrapper rather than an individual. So at least we've finally made a start.

@Cam2020

Clearly when one reads that some girls skip school because they can't afford sanitary protection, and some kids don't get an evening meal, the only response possible is that something needs to be done about this at a government level, because something is certainly wrong with the way our society is working.

Do people really believe in this? Pack of own brand tampons is £1 in sainsbury.

That's no use if you don't have £1.

@MarshaBradyo

The if I can anyone can idea is flawed.

As an analogy a top Hollywood actor might say anyone can, live your dream etc but a better reality is to assess the statistical reality of making it. Then consider what makes you likely to be that .00 percent.

Same for businesses, not everyone will be running after two, five years. Statistics show this,

Agree it is a flawed argument.

Remember speaking to a professor who said she didn't believe there was a gender gap in academia because she had got to X level. This despite her many colleagues and masses of data saying otherwise.

Some people see what they want, they don't like that they may have been lucky, they want to feel they earned it.

Boris, is that you?

@LonginesPrime

I'm unlikely to ever make six figures but I make £50k with almost zero daily stress (although I do graft). If I go self employed I could maybe make £85k but that'd be the limit in all probability.

If you'd have worked harder at school OP, you could make £50k without grafting at all!

Or been in possession of millions if you had the right genes.

manbunned barista

Isn't that a pretty disgusting homophobic slur you are using there?

This argument completely ignores the fact that we need cleaners, nurses, bin men etc. for society to function. If they’re all off being entrepreneurs, who’s going to wipe bums in care homes and educate our kids?

Were you out clapping for carers every Thursday night being secretly thrilled that they’d never be able to get their hands on your wealth OP?

I think people sometimes have a too simplistic view of the situation. How people accumulate their wealth is different - some people inherit it, some people work very hard for it. You can’t put everyone in the same box. For example why would someone study at uni for years to qualify as a doctor or solicitor just to earn the same rewards as someone who doesn’t bother and works in Tescos. I’m ok financially but I’ve passed up the opportunity for promotion in the past and probably could have been a lot more comfortable financially, but I didn’t want it as couldn’t be arsed at the time. We make our own luck in life. In an ideal world we would all be equal financially, but that’s not how life works.

Part of the issue I feel could be lack of communication about the sort of opportunities which would perhaps suit a lot of people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds.

Most professionals don't know a lot about site work etc, and an individual from a deprived background probably doesn't have the resources to get a degree and become a solicitor. But he could get a HGV license funded by a government scheme and be earning over £30k in 6-12 months due to the massive shortage of drivers.

When I left office work I initially became a HGV driver before going into site machinery. I paid for it myself but it was the same training as the gov scheme would fund. Took me four days to get my license and was on £35k within a year (£41k by the 2nd year).

I don’t see the wealth of others as public property. I see that next to none of them contribute their fair share back into society.
They pay the bare minimum that they are legally able to get away, and sometimes even less than that.
Look at the obscene personal fortune of Jeff Bezos and the amount he paid on Amazon profits last year. It’s much much much less Than the tax rate you and I pay. But his huge profits come as a result of things that taxes pay for- basic infrastructure, and the education, health and welfare of his employees. Shouldn’t he contribute Fairly towards the roads he uses for his deliveries? He uses them much more than you do, his business can’t survive without them? Etc etc
If the wealthy paid a level of tax commensurate with us plebs, and one that reflected what they take out of society I’d be very happy.

Isn't that a pretty disgusting homophobic slur you are using there?

Um, no.

I was describing a hipster type guy with a manbun.

You won't get a good debate on here op. People think no one ever worked hard and deserved anything and poorer people are all hard done by. I agree with your theory. I didn't have a great start in life and it was the same as my peers but I wanted better and got better. The others just couldn't be arsed and it's that simple. The only complaints I here about housing is from people in that there London but there is more to the UK than that place.

Your argument also assumes that everyone is able bodied, mentally healthy, has no vulnerabilities, and is not likely to face prejudice. Which sadly is not the case.

This argument completely ignores the fact that we need cleaners, nurses, bin men etc. for society to function. If they’re all off being entrepreneurs, who’s going to wipe bums in care homes and educate our kids?

Were you out clapping for carers every Thursday night being secretly thrilled that they’d never be able to get their hands on your wealth OP?

Jesus Christ, read the fucking thread. I was a bin man (well, dustcart driver).

Your argument also assumes that everyone is able bodied, mentally healthy, has no vulnerabilities, and is not likely to face prejudice. Which sadly is not the case.

Nope, it doesn't.

@FrogspawnSmoothie

This argument completely ignores the fact that we need cleaners, nurses, bin men etc. for society to function. If they’re all off being entrepreneurs, who’s going to wipe bums in care homes and educate our kids?

Were you out clapping for carers every Thursday night being secretly thrilled that they’d never be able to get their hands on your wealth OP?

Jesus Christ, read the fucking thread. I was a bin man (well, dustcart driver).

But not all of you could then go on to do something else, could you? There’d be no one left!

• @FrogspawnSmoothie*

Your example is good but it assumes owing capital ie. land (farmer) and equipment to start with.
I agree with you: my husband and I were lucky to be born in families that had capital so opportunities to give their offsprings. NOT insane amount of wealth but enough to live comfortably and have opportunities.
Whatever we have now comes from sheer hard work from us so we have more because we receive work ethic.
But we had capital to start with.

What people mean is how do you make sure everybody have the same equal access to opportunities so there are social mobility?
It is necessary but very hard to achieve as a society.

A previous poster on page 1 describe how she was broke and started her business worked hard and is now in the 1%.
I have met an uber driver who told me he works 3 jobs and his wife 1 so their 3 children will go to university no other option as far as he is concerned. Those kids are lucky because their parents hard work and vision will give them opportunities thus choices later on.

So in all, i think hard work and ambition are what counts. But it helps to live in a society that values social mobility.

I’d be more than happy to pay a little more tax to make the system a little more fair.

How nice for you. I'm already in the 40% tax bracket and can't afford to pay any more tax.

When I left office work I initially became a HGV driver before going into site machinery. I paid for it myself but it was the same training as the gov scheme would fund. Took me four days to get my license and was on £35k within a year (£41k by the 2nd year)

That's great and I'm sure it would be an option for some, but not everyone has the aptitude to drive HGVs; there are also quite strict medical requirements. My sister's DP drives normal lorries for a living but can't do HGVs because he has a dicky heart. I can't even pass a car driving test so I very much doubt I could ever learn to drive a HGV!

My DDs (11 and 8) are adopted. Their birth parents are both on benefits. Their birth mum grew up in care and has learning difficulties. All four of her children have been taken off her. The system let her down badly.

If our DDs hadn't been adopted, they wouldn't have had the opportunities that they have now, growing up in a middle class area. Their lives would have turned out very differently. Maybe DD2 would have been able to make something of herself (she's a very feisty character), but very likely not.

It really is too simplistic to say that everyone has the same opportunities to make something of themselves. That really isn't the case.

OP I think it's far more complex than your Farmer example.
Have a look at your DC school, narrow it down to their class and the children's overall achievements... what do you see?
I bet it's not just hard working kids v lazy kids.

I’d be more than happy to pay a little more tax to make the system a little more fair.

Lots say this on mn, it’s easy to do if you want to.

Socialism is largely founded on the jealousy of others these days

Utter bollocks. Capitalism is founded on exploitation and environmentally unsustainable economic growth.

Read the Communist Manifesto and/or Marx's Capital.