To not understand why so many people view the wealth of others as public property

[FrogspawnSmoothie]

I've been noticing a lot of posts lately saying things like 'we need to sort out the wealth divide' etc and calling for the wealthy to pay for xyz 'because they can afford to', and I must say I've never quite shared this mentality.

I can see why people start to think this way when we're constantly told things like '99% of the nation's wealth is owned by 1% of the population', making it sound like they're hoarding resources. But the thing is, it's not a tin of biscuits given to the population which is now being hoarded by a few greedy chubsters. It may well have been foreign investment, for instance, which wasn't otherwise going to be invested in a UK business to then benefit the economy through taxes as it does. I go to work and earn my income, and that money is mine - I imagine most people would consider their paycheck to be their own.

I think of it like two farmers. One innovates in his processes and works out how to grow more apples with the same resources. He then reinvests his extra profit into better equipment and buys more land. Eventually, he owns 75% of the apples in the town, despite being only one of many farmers. I'm not convinced he now needs to start giving his apples to the other disgruntled farmers who envy his wealth, especially as he's now paying much more tax.

I'll admit it's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it (I'm no economist) but I'm not convinced that all the people moaning about the rich have given it a particularly nuanced consideration either. I was listening to some prat of a manbunned barista banging on about socialism and 'redistribution of wealth' in Costa today, and gotta admit I just thought to myself 'sounds like you should've worked harder at school, mate.' 🤷‍♀️

@Devilishpyjamas

But even education is no longer a ‘service’ sailingblue. Look into the finances of academy chains to understand the reality. It doesn’t benefit staff or children.

The NHS is the same. Hospitals are paid "per procedure" so fight to get the "right" patients. My OH has cancer and needs a stem cell transplant - there are only two hospitals in our region that do it, both NHS. We went to both and couldn't believe how well we were treated, given tours of the isolation rooms and facilities etc. When the consultants realised he had grave misgivings about the procedure and wasn't willing to "sign up" that day, they both quickly lost interest. Later we discovered that the NHS would have paid them (their hospital) tens of thousands for the procedure, hence why they were competing against eachother for his "business". People don't realise the NHS is already a business!

• I think you need to define wealth. I don’t count a household income of 100k whilst mortgaged and working for that money as massively wealthy for example - although clearly they’re going to have the option to be comfortably off.

Wealthy to me is the people I know who were able to buy half a million pound houses (and more) with no mortgage & without having to work for it because their parents gave it to them. Those parents usually had their houses given to them etc. I wouldn’t lose much sleep over increasing their taxes tbh. *

This is a point that gets lost a lot. The venom is often directed at the former, which is where the resentment comes in from that side. A household income of 100k with a mortgage etc, childcare costs and zero help from child benefit, childcare schemes etc isn't much better off than two people on two lower salaries.

There are lots of benefits available and there isn't really this culture of hating people who claim them.

I've always wondered whether it's the same in other countries as over here.

Despite there being lots of genuinely needy people, there are also lots of piss takers here IME. If benefits were abolished (which I'm not suggesting) I wager a lot of the latter would return to work pretty sharpish, but of course this can't happen as too many genuinely needy people would suffer.

I'm talking about people like my mate's brother. 38yo and hasn't worked in almost five years despite being a straight A student at A Level. Repeatedly fired from loads of low paid jobs due to poor attendance and has moved home again, where he spends his days playing PS4 and smoking weed (paid for with his benefits as he doesn't pay for rent/food etc). His mum finally started turning off the internet during the day at which point he became depressed as he had little to keep him busy without being able to play Fortnite online. He's now claiming disability benefit for depression and his mum's turned back on the internet so he continues to smoke weed all day and play games.

Another example is a guy who came to work with me for a few days. Didn't want to come back despite being offered more shifts as the gov were paying for his HGV training (£2k) which wouldn't get funded if he was in work (he could've worked and paid it himself but didn't want to). My mate also employs a few people who can only work a few hours as they'd be worse off if they worked more and lost benefit entitlement (although some of them could in theory do more hours - it's hard to blame them tbh as who'd want to work more to earn the same amount).

And don't even get me started on the local taekwondo teacher who walks with a cane but can do jumping spinning back kicks. 😂 I'm guessing the only reason nobody's reported him is because he's quite a character and generally quite popular with the locals (and teaches their kids).

It's not an easy issue to resolve.

All the rich people I know were born into it. I don't know a single person who went from council house to multi-millionaire (excluding property rises).

I was born in poverty (we were homeless at various points, didn't have clothing/food). I was very bright and eager to learn, but the constant chaos of my life, the anxiety, the instability, made it very difficult to study and get ahead. It grinds you down.

I have managed through sheer hard work (and a lot of luck) to drag myself up to a comfortable middle class lifestyle. I'm still working at it, but fuck, I'm exhausted, and I'm not even 40 yet.

Now tell me that Edwyn Butterbottom the 3rd, who walked into exclusive internships through his dad's connections, or was able to create a start-up because of financial support from his wealthy family, works harder than me or the barista? It's insulting.

Quite agree kazzy - my last 5 years have been following the funding streams back to NHSE or the CCG & then making panel applications.

@Devilishpyjamas

Absolutely agree with what you said below:

We value the wrong things in the UK. We value jobs that create money rather than those that contribute to wellbeing. Until that changes inequality will grow & that benefits no-one - inequality is steady a huge problem in this country.

Clearly when one reads that some girls skip school because they can't afford sanitary protection, and some kids don't get an evening meal, the only response possible is that something needs to be done about this at a government level, because something is certainly wrong with the way our society is working.

But what is the "something" that you want done? If you give that girl's parents more benefits, how do you know they'll spend it on her? Or do you mean "something" as being removing the girl from her parents?

Except @hotdoggone the higher earning family will reap the benefits of their higher income once they don’t have to fork out for childcare, will almost certainly have better career progression and they will have better pensions.
The notion that anyone with a household income of £100k isn’t well off (and certainly in the top 5%) is laughable......you do know the average household income is about £35k

Socialism is largely founded on the jealousy of others these days. Its no longer about a fair system or raising standard for everyone to the highest level, its about dragging down those who have done 'better' and have 'more', quite often through hard work.
We need to value all members of society and make sure everyone can live and there are certainly failures, but a lot of it is jealousy.

i'm a health professional, i'm highly educated and experienced and my job has alot of responsibility. I earn 35k. TV presenters earn 300k. Lots of jobs are not paid what they are worth.

There are many on MN who would like to argue that there is a direct linear correlation between working hard and earning a good salary.
By this analogy, footballers and Kylie Jenner ought to be the hardest working people weve ever seen because they worked so hard at school and the care worker doing long shifts looking after dementia patients, dealing with incontinence and preparing a deceased patient so their relatives can see them, is obviously lazy, doing a pretty easy job and should simply work harder...
Natural talent, background, intelligence, etc can all have an impact on earning power, as can luck. I think people hate acknowledging any of these factors because they feel it takes away the credit for their hard work. You can be hardworking and have a degree of good fortune by meeting/knowing the right people or simply pitching an idea at "the right" time.
It's like it's of people berating millenials for not being on the housing ladder ignoring the fact that a generation or 2 ago it was possible to buy a modest house based on 1 (very average) salary.

The biggest component of the UK tax gap is the black economy, not tax evasion by the rich. The black economy is normal people doing illegal things, like small traders not being VAT registered despite being over the threshold, employers paying undeclared "cash in hand" to staff (takeaways, car washes etc), people selling duty free booze and fags, people doing cash in hand jobs etc. You know, normal people, your friends and neighbours.

It's a numbers game. There is a proportionally tiny number of rich. You could tax them 100% income tax and it still wouldn't be anywhere near the amount raised from the millions of low level tax evaders in the black economy. (Many of whom will also be benefit cheats due to under-reported income).

Clearly when one reads that some girls skip school because they can't afford sanitary protection, and some kids don't get an evening meal, the only response possible is that something needs to be done about this at a government level, because something is certainly wrong with the way our society is working.

Do people really believe in this? Pack of own brand tampons is £1 in sainsbury.

@VashtaNerada
I’d be more than happy to pay a little more tax to make the system a little more fair
Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, I think there are lots of issues with this kind of statement.

To begin with, how much more would you be willing to pay into the system to make it fairer? What if paying that bit extra meant that you would be denied something that really mattered to you, say for example owning your own home or being able to afford a child? I think in reality, people's willingness and ability to make sacrifices for the benefit of those less fortunate is extremely limited and compelling all of those on £30k in London to pay more tax would actually be condemning lots of individuals and families to a life where they would be struggling to get by with a reasonable standard of life. A better idea would be that people like yourselves that wish to contribute more do so via charities and organisations set up to help the poorest in society.

Also when do you decide that society is sufficiently "fair". If we are focussed on the idea of equality of opportunity then this transcends money and all sorts of measures and interventions would need to be made to make even a small difference to those that are born disadvantaged. In some cases, no matter what you did it would not be enough to break the cycle of inequality and disadvantage.

i'm a health professional, i'm highly educated and experienced and my job has alot of responsibility. I earn 35k. TV presenters earn 300k. Lots of jobs are not paid what they are worth.

TV, acting, etc is an area where it's all about nepotism rather than ability.

Just because you give people the same amount of "assets" does not mean that they will all use these assets for the same purpose, or even protect them for the future.
In some ways there are parallels with various forms of incentivisation, but you have to find the incentive that triggers the switch for the "behaviour" you want.
For example, a nursery found its parents were often late collecting their children, so the nursery introduced a fine of x per hour (flat rate) for late collectors. Unfortunately the effect was completely the opposite to that desired, as parents now viewed the x as the amount they needed to pay for an extra hour's care.
So, by giving everyone a flat-rate living allowance (redistribution of perceived wealth), you will still find people making different choices. Some will use it to improve their lot, others will squander it.
As for the issue of 000s of properties, bought by foreign investors, lying empty, you could consider a property purchase tax for non-residents/non-nationals of up to 100% as some countries do.

OP you wrote -"I think of it like two farmers. One innovates in his processes and works out how to grow more apples with the same resources. He then reinvests his extra profit into better equipment and buys more land. Eventually, he owns 75% of the apples in the town, despite being only one of many farmers. I'm not convinced he now needs to start giving his apples to the other disgruntled farmers who envy his wealth, especially as he's now paying much more tax."
This is part ^ of your original post.

But it wasn't like that was it? And isn't.
Farmer got his gun, rounded up all the people working on the neighbouring farm and took them back to his farm and sold them to other farms. Then he went back to neighbouring farm and dug up all the apple trees -and took them back to his farm etc.Then he brought up all the best processing plants and made himself even richer -etc"

I think you need to seperate out "inherited" with "stolen or plundered" with "self-made".

Inheritance tax is avoided by most of the "upper class" because they have the people who can move assets around and make sure you don't. Look at all the celebs caught moving things "offshore" or how many people want to reside in Monaco. - no tax.
Likewise if you have "nothing" it is very difficult to take anything away but this is where the welfare state comes in -that is humanity to look after our most vulnerable.

Your most recent post states
"And don't even get me started on the local taekwondo teacher who walks with a cane but can do jumping spinning back kicks. 😂 I'm guessing the only reason nobody's reported him is because he's quite a character and generally quite popular with the locals (and teaches their kids)." -so you can't walk with a cane and work now. Maybe he likes it or it is an old family heirloom or has character. Or are you suggesting he is committing benefit fraud despite not knowing anything and just being judgemental?
My neighbour works, does everything most other people do and is regularly shouted out for using disabled spaces -he is 30 and looks very fit. He has a serious heart condition -but some disabilities you can't see and you have no right to assume someone can do "everything you expect of them" and are "lazy".

Do people really believe in this? Pack of own brand tampons is £1 in sainsbury.

What is available and what people have access to, are 2 very different things. If a girl isnt provided with adequate san pro at home, they might not have a spare pound, or a low cost option local to their home/school to purchase their own.

The notion that anyone with a household income of £100k isn’t well off (and certainly in the top 5%) is laughable......

No I don't think that makes you well off. What are you comparing it too? You need to earn around 80k alone to be in the top 10% of earners in London. BUT you have to recognise that the really high earners are not paying themselves via PAYE.

The problem isn't capitalism it's the fact that we are now in a system which privitises the gains and socialises the losses. It also doesn't help that central banks around the world are printing money like crazy. That causes asset prices to rise which is great for those that already own loads of assets but screws those trying to make it due to the inflated prices. It also leads to a load of zombie companies hanging around that have a poor business model and so should go bust so that new more innovative businesses can take their place.

During this crisis the rich have only gotten richer and the poor poorer. Billionaires got $637 billion richer during the coronavirus crisis. All because governments race to inflate House and stock prices.

They do not allow for any price discovery that would naturally occur in a boom and bust cycle. The millennial and gen z generations have been left holding the bag. All time high house prices, all time high stock prices and all time low interest rates...

I’d be more than happy to pay a little more tax to make the system a little more fair

You're free to voluntarily pay more to HMRC.

You're free to make donations to charities that align with your values.

It's pointless thinking about these things from your experience of people you know, or know of. With a very few exceptions, you don't know the names of the super rich and that is deliberate.

100k, 300k - this is not super rich. For example - I have these figures to hand sorry so it's from America, but their Gini coefficient is close to ours at .38 . The top 1% of U.S. households — about 1.2 million families — have aggregate net worth of 35 trillion dollars.

www.federalreserve.gov/releases/efa/efa-distributional-financial-accounts.htm

@Cam2020

Clearly when one reads that some girls skip school because they can't afford sanitary protection, and some kids don't get an evening meal, the only response possible is that something needs to be done about this at a government level, because something is certainly wrong with the way our society is working.

Do people really believe in this? Pack of own brand tampons is £1 in sainsbury.

Yes I do believe it. Do you not think poverty exists? 4 million people of mine. And yes you are more likely to like in poverty if you are a lone parent, unemployed or disabled www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/16/new-study-finds-45-million-uk-children-living-in-poverty#:~:text=More%20than%2014%20million%20people,material%20disadvantage%20in%20the%20UK.

I used to think I had worked hard and deserved all my success until I met a young black man the same age as me on an inpatient psych ward where I was the Dr. As we spoke I realised he is clearly just as intelligent as me but our life stories could not be more different

Me- born to 2 loving, white, middle class parents who valued education and supported me. Lived in a pleasant rural area. Went to private school. Became a Dr.

Him- born black in a poor inner city area to a mother who was murdered by his violent abusive father when he was a toddler and brought up in care. Nonetheless worked hard at school but as a teenager was stabbed in the neck in a racist attack, lost the use of his arm and suffered PTSD. Hopes of A levels and college were dashed but he started work but then fell victim to the schizophrenia he'd inherited from his father. Never worked again.

The scales fell from my eyes in that one conversation. After that I never took my success for granted again.
The stories that I hear in my job as an NHS psychiatrist constantly confirm to me that we are not starting on an even playing field in this society. I think many middle class people don't realise what life is like for people in poverty, with poor housing, zero hours jobs, no role models or encouragement, limited opportunities, poor health

-I do not begrudge benefits even for those others might see as 'undeserving'. Systemic generational inequality is usually the reason.

• I am a well paid Dr and I do not moan about taxes or feel I deserve to keep more. I pay up reasonably happily and vote for parties who would tax me more.

-I do not send my children to private school but volunteer to improve state education

• I do not practice private medicine or use it. I put all my energies into the NHS.

I think people who think they earned all their money and should get to keep it are usually a little bit 'Tim nice dim' have no idea about peoples lives in the real world and should count their blessings.

I recommend reading Poverty Safari by Daren McGavrey.

So while believing that everyone can be wealthy if they just make the effort you accept that we have to make sure most people don't or you'll have to do those dirty jobs yourself.

Guess you missed the bit where I said I used to drive a bin lorry.

Sorry typo 4 million people below the poverty line in the UK according to this article and study. 2018 stats