To not understand why so many people view the wealth of others as public property

[FrogspawnSmoothie]

I've been noticing a lot of posts lately saying things like 'we need to sort out the wealth divide' etc and calling for the wealthy to pay for xyz 'because they can afford to', and I must say I've never quite shared this mentality.

I can see why people start to think this way when we're constantly told things like '99% of the nation's wealth is owned by 1% of the population', making it sound like they're hoarding resources. But the thing is, it's not a tin of biscuits given to the population which is now being hoarded by a few greedy chubsters. It may well have been foreign investment, for instance, which wasn't otherwise going to be invested in a UK business to then benefit the economy through taxes as it does. I go to work and earn my income, and that money is mine - I imagine most people would consider their paycheck to be their own.

I think of it like two farmers. One innovates in his processes and works out how to grow more apples with the same resources. He then reinvests his extra profit into better equipment and buys more land. Eventually, he owns 75% of the apples in the town, despite being only one of many farmers. I'm not convinced he now needs to start giving his apples to the other disgruntled farmers who envy his wealth, especially as he's now paying much more tax.

I'll admit it's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it (I'm no economist) but I'm not convinced that all the people moaning about the rich have given it a particularly nuanced consideration either. I was listening to some prat of a manbunned barista banging on about socialism and 'redistribution of wealth' in Costa today, and gotta admit I just thought to myself 'sounds like you should've worked harder at school, mate.' 🤷‍♀️

Apologies if this has already been addressed.

But the majority of business owners earning vast sums rely on various employees. In order to operate, they need to employ people and pay them a wage - this wage will undoubtedly be lower than the business owner is paying themselves.

If all employers paid their employees higher wages, they would need to pay less in taxes as there would be less need for many of the things government pays for (the benefits system, for example) - plus those employees would then also be paying more in tax to contribute to the government coffers. As it is, the wealthy’s taxes go to the government to then get partly paid to the lower-waged to top-up their low wages - with a proportion going on the administrative system. It would make more sense to just pay the higher wages in the first place.
If business owners don’t want to pay higher wages, then they need to pay more tax.

@Jussayingisall

You won't get a good debate on here op. People think no one ever worked hard and deserved anything and poorer people are all hard done by. I agree with your theory. I didn't have a great start in life and it was the same as my peers but I wanted better and got better. The others just couldn't be arsed and it's that simple. The only complaints I here about housing is from people in that there London but there is more to the UK than that place.

If you had a difficult start in life and say "well I had x and I'm fine now" you clearly are not fine now if you begrudge the additional help others with a bad start in life need in order to succeed in the way you have.

I grew up in foster care and was a likely statistic - I was adopted by the right family at the right time and went to University, got married, had DC, live a lovely little MC life with ponies and holiday homes and nobody would know on the surface how rough my start in life was.

The fact that I didn't end up on the streets is sheer luck - for every person who manages to graft their way out of a shitty start in life there'll be a dozen who can't/don't and rather than look down on them and assume they simply didn't work hard enough, perhaps they just weren't fortunate enough to have the opportunities that I did.

I don't see others money as public property. But I do think that individuals who are fortunate in life are often unwilling to acknowledge their good fortune - instead they convince themselves they're in that position because they've done x, y and z and if poor people also did x, y and z they'd be fine, too, whilst never acknowledging the very real possibility that our society is designed to keep the people living below the poverty line in their place.

You won't get a good debate on here op. People think no one ever worked hard and deserved anything and poorer people are all hard done by. I agree with your theory. I didn't have a great start in life and it was the same as my peers but I wanted better and got better. The others just couldn't be arsed and it's that simple. The only complaints I here about housing is from people in that there London but there is more to the UK than that place.

I didn't expect it to go down too well, but I still like to attempt a discussion.

I'm from a decidedly middle class background, although my father's family were extremely poor and as such he always made me work for what I wanted. I wasn't nearly as spoiled as most of my mates growing up but nonetheless did have the luxury of a good education.

However, having ADHD and dyspraxia meant I didn't function well in an demanding office job and hence wasn't able to really use my education to my benefit. I could've just taken a low paid non-stressful job but like yourself I tried to make the most of what I could and found unexpectedly that a site environment was perfect for me. I didn't have to navigate all the nuanced customer and workplace interactions required in many corporate jobs, and didn't have to worry about social etiquette in the same way as many of the people I work with are a bit 'rough edged'.

But having an analytical mind has also helped as many of my colleagues are more 'hands on' and are great at say manouvering a 65ft truck into a tight spot in the dark, but not so great at problem solving and planning, which are still important to my job but nowhere like project managing 30 people on a proposal.

Do people really believe in this? Pack of own brand tampons is £1 in sainsbury.

Oh god, one of these types. ‘I don’t believe in poverty, I had a bowl of porridge this morning that cost 4p.’

Ok, let’s assume you are a girl aged under 18 and you actually have a pound and you are physically able to use tampons (those are assumptions in themselves).

How do you get to Sainsbury’s? Is there a large one that carries own brand tampons on every corner? What if your family doesn’t have a car? Should you take the bus? Doesn’t that cost more than a pound? What if the only shop within walking distance is a metro type shop with elevated prices where a box of tampons costs £3.25? And they’re not a one off purchase obviously, you need them every month. Then what?

There is a tendency for people to resent others success but an overwhelming problem is that failure is profitable for the ultrarich but success is often punished for those further down the ladder.

Some people have got very rich during thr crisis in 2008 and now but most of us haven't. On the flip side, when you have AAA game developers making a game which gives the company massive profits and huge dividends, but those on the team are more likely to be made redundant than get a bonus.

thing is corruption is so endemic now it isn't challenged by the media so we must and we can. Protest, write to your MP but do not comply for compliance sake when it ceases to benefit the majority and only serves to benefit those who see us as minions, not people.

*Oh I can't even be bothered.

Read some books. The second post about green hair just warrants a .

As if someone juggling jobs on minimum wage whilst also bringing up their kids is an 'anticapitalist' with green hair*

Absolutely pathetic and ridiculous point, I agree. Because no one but green haired drop outs can care about people. Makes me so fucking angry.

The richest Apple farmer in that example will be the one that pays their workers least, works then hardest, diverts the water from all their neighbours and the rest of the catchment and dumps their waste rather than paying for safe disposal.

Even if we could make money and opportunities infinite, the planets space and resources never will be. The wealthiest 10% consume 20x more energy than the bottom 10%. I dont think the goal should be to 'up' everyone to that level of overconsumption. Far better to redistribute what we already have through better public services (that everyone benefits from) funded by higher taxes.

I also roll my eyes when wealthy people claim they are wealthy purely because they worked hard. They conveniently forget that they had the benefit of working hard within a society that provided them with healthcare, an education, (relatively) safe streets, access to food and other resources , all of which depend on those lower paid workers that people scoff at. Covid has shown that as a society we would we absolutely nothing without our lowest paid workers. We would literally be stuffed if they all decided to go self employed and make their millions making more pointless apps or other consumerist bollocks that society doesn't REALLY need.

You won't get a good debate on here op. People think no one ever worked hard and deserved anything and poorer people are all hard done by.

No this isn’t the reason, it’s more that most posters start with the personal when it’s the big picture that is more useful.

Another point made upthread that deserves more attention is that an equal society benefits all.

There will be more crime, antisocial behaviour and drug trade in more unequal societies. If people have nothing and see that others have it all they may steal it or rise up in violent opposition.

When you pay more tax it is to your own benefit as well as other people that they don't need to steal from you or engage in illegal activity. It benefits the middle classes not to have a disaffected underclass who might knife them in the street.

Maybe you'll agree to pay more tax for that reason if not to benefit others.

OP, forgive me but, you are terribly naive.

So much wealth is inherited. So much of it gained through cronyism and if not illegal then shortcuts in proper procedure.

Look at the latest round of Govt contract handouts to friends of friends of the Govt. millions. Billions and more.

And we have people living on the streets and food banks.

Kazzyhoward - The obvious solution to period poverty is to have supplies of sanitary protection available in schools which can be given out, free of charge, to people who need them. I suspect that, on certain, days, some girls may need multiple changes, pads as well, and protective underwear. You can be getting through pounds doing this. Some girls have more than one bleed in a month.
The factual reports represent an illustration of poverty existing. Ditto the information about children having a cooked dinner at school, during the lunch hour, but not when they return home in the evening. One would need to read individual stories to find out how such a state of poverty has arisen for each individual household, but, I'm sure that it becomes routine to become a hostage to fortune if you don't have a buffer of money and savings.

Handing out fruit for free in school, basic spare clothes, lap tops, would be good, in my opinion, if this could be done without stigma and if young people would be cool and acceptant about it. I think many people would be happy to contribute some of their earnings to schemes such as this which are simple and which supply a tangible product and benefit.

I agree, that lecturing people with money, and castigating them for being 'high earners' is wrong: these are hard-working people, usually, and they don't deserve to be vilified. Philanthropy has been practised for generations. It is a failing of contemporary political theorising if wealthier members of society are to be condemned and deterred from experiencing feelings of satisfaction in their ability to help other human beings.

I actually made exactly the same point earlier in the thread - i.e. that we need people to do these roles and that people who've spent £30k getting a degree probably won't want to work in a low paid service job.

If you live in the UK you live in a country where most of the land was carved up and divided between a handful of powerful war mongers and cronies whose wealth was based on the serfdom (akin to slavery) of the rest of us. Doesnt make for the basis of a fair or just society.

....was replying to Rowboats but quote function hasn't worked.

I completely agree. I find it quite repulsive tbh when adults are kicking off because they want strangers to share their money with them. You should have to work harder to earn more money, and most people who earn more money do work harder or their parents did.

I think you’re one of the many, many Facebook-led people who climb up on to that high horse without the faintest idea of what they’re talking about. Another recommendation here to read Poverty Safari so you don’t make an absolute tit of yourself when you have this conversation in real life.

Didn’t take long for the benefit bashing to start did it?

There are lots of opportunities in this country if you seek them out. What a lot of people are not prepared to do is go look for them. We have access to education, further education, technical courses and info at our finger tips. We have major cities with leading industries and companies. We have one of the most affluent cities in the world - London, home to over 1/6th of our population and still room for more workers.

If it is so unequal and if there are so few opportunities in this country then how come immigrants repeatedly come here, work in low paid jobs and then their children, who go to the same schools as ours, end up with top degrees and in very professional jobs? They start from a disadvantage and still get ahead.

A lot of the problems we have in this country are social, not economic. I am from a WC background and I treat my DC's education like it is the most important part of their life. I learnt this from when I lived overseas. It has made a massive difference to how well my DC do at school.

I think ultimately we need to look at politics and the economy more as engineering problems as at the moment they are too focused on personality and single issue. I wonder how many politicians would not look befuddled if you were to use the phrases 'cascade failure', 'positive feedback spiral', or 'simple-complex ecosystem', since these are all phrases we will need to familarize ourselves with soon.

Imagine there are 2 farmers with an equal number of apples. Farmer A is paid £1 for every apple he produces. Farmer B is paid 83p for every apple she produces. This is the current gender pay gap in the UK and contributes massively to the distribution of wealth in this country.

Imagine further Farmer A has 2 children he pays for every other weekend and Farmer B has 2 children she has to pay for every day. This is a massive reality for many people and another cause of wealth inequality.

Imagine all 4 children of the 2 farmers grow up and continue farming. Farmer A's children don't have to pay rent for the farm because Farmer A paid off the mortgage with his extra income. Farmer B's children have to pay a portion of their income on mortgage payments because Farmer B didn't pay it off because she earned less and spent it on feeding her children. This compounds the inequity over the generations.

Yes, all farmers earned their money and are entitled to keep it, but your scenario assumes everyone is starting from the same place, which just isn't true.

I used to think like that. When I was 16. I grew up, experienced some of the world and had my eyes opened.

Oh god, immigrants now!

Your children are so so so lucky to have someone in their life who believes in education and pushes them to be as educated as possible. That’s an incredible thing to do for them. Of course, a lot of children don’t have parents who think the same as you. A lot of families are so poor that the idea of further education over another wage coming in is unthinkable. But you know that.

I’d be more than happy to pay a little more tax to make the system a little more fair.

How nice for you. I'm already in the 40% tax bracket and can't afford to pay any more tax.

See i tend to agree. My parents are immigrants & came with nothing. They wanted their dc to have a better education & more opportunity then they did, which we got eg uni. However once I got to the position where I live and work with mainly mc people I was gobsmacked by how privileged some are (there is a thread about how much help you get from family). I know adults that get holidays paid for, phone bills paid, 100k for deposits, home improvements etc. So whilst I might earn the same as my colleague we lead pretty different lives & every penny of my income is accounted for.

You should have to work harder to earn more money

So you’re an advocate of 100% inheritance tax then? How refreshing.

It’s kind of ironic that g the he hard work makes you rich brigade forget that our own head of state is handed gazillions for the square root of fuck all hard work. What, exactly, does Prince Andrew do to earn his keep for example?

Absolutely pathetic and ridiculous point, I agree. Because no one but green haired drop outs can care about people. Makes me so fucking angry.

But it's true! The communist/Antifa/anti capitalist nutjobs do have a penchant for silly fluorescent haircuts, and the blokes always seem to have dodgy beards and hipster taches - a fair few of the pony tail/fedora combos too. They even call them 'beardy bros' in the feminist section on here!