To think, without upsetting anybody, we are massively overpopulated on this tiny Island??? What sensible non punitive solutions are there??

[PasstheBucket89]

Its pretty relevant with all the talk about migrant boats, priti patel saying she will make the passage unviable etc she has done some awful things, it makes my blood run cold tbh i doubt she cares about the safety of them in that boats. But, what di we do, and when suggestions are made its often motivated by hate not quality of life issues. And yes, the ageing massively adds to the overpopulation aswell, but what should we do? reasonably? this tiny Island is massively overpopulated, it doesn't benefit anyone to be crammed in like sardines like this, massively effects access to housing, healthcare, education etc, What should the gov do, not adding to the hostile environment??.

Cayrol that was an arguable idea even before we left the EU given the difficulties of manufacturing and transporting here. Without the EU, without solid allies locked into trade relations supplying us with food, and facing god-knows-what tariffs with no improvement to infrastructure in sight, its downright dangerous.

On the other topic, if you google for “asylum seekers in hotels” you will find report after report covering local councils’ protests about this and the other side of the story. Apparently central government, ever the friend to all of us, used the hotels’ meal provision as the full discharge of their duties re support. Anyone requiring non-standard provision such as medicines or supplies for babies was left without and ignored. Not luxury, more like prison.

Carol You do know that some people are actually from London? Not everyone moved there as economic migrants (plenty of British ones in London). It's funny how Londoners are always told to just move if they can't afford it. Yet if it's Cornwall or the Scottish Highlands (as mentioned by a PP) it's not ok for locals to be priced out.

@CustardSpaghetti - what do you mean by “from” London? I don’t live where I’m from because I need to make a living. No one has a divine right to live forever in a wealthy place because they are from there.

@Pepperwort - Brexit or not, comparative advantage is still overwhelmingly approved of by economists. Sorry but going back to growing turnips would make us all poorer.

What ‘comparable advantage’ do you think we have, compared to Germany, or even Spain?

"Some were also put up at a Hilton Hotel in the Midlands which has closed to other guests. Lots of british people have never been to a hotel as they cannot afford it as tax is so high so it does seem a bit much that someone who breaks the law and also risks the life of their child in moving from a safe country which is France get put up at our expense in hotels"

It's not the tax putting hotels out of reach - most people aren't paying significant taxes because they don't earn enough because wages have been driven down so much over the last 40 years - while millionaires have turned into billionaires and even trillionaires. That's where the taxing needs to happen - and affordable housing needs to be prioritised everywhere, driving down the cost of housing and also of hotels and B&Bs.

And France - refugee camps in France - is not safe for refugee children. That's bullshit and you know it.

@Pepperwort - it’s “comparative advantage”. It’s a basic economic term - suggest a wee google. It’s the main reason why trade is so much better than autarky (essentially not trading with other countries).

We need to start listening to experts again and stop paying attention to the tabloids.

I know exactly what it means. Why don’t you try answering the question instead of trying to be loftily condescending ?

Does your respect for economists and experts include respect for the majority of them, who said we’d be shafted outside of the E.U.?

A friend, a refugee to the UK sent me this.

I don't think that poster is quite accurate. For example for normal sailors

"Passage planning for a Channel crossing

Making a passage plan is a legal requirement when crossing the Channel, without which you can be prosecuted in the event of an accident."

It’s very accurate if you are a refugee where the UK has such a poor record for helping.

Reading some of the posts on this thread makes me despair.

These people are humans, their lives are so shit they're willing to risk drowning to make a better life for themselves and their children and you absolute vile people are getting pissy about them being put up in hotels.

They need to be welcomed, their skills utilised and for them to be made productive members of our society.

It's the nasty uncivilised, suspicious members of our society which force them to work on the black market and live in horrendous conditions.

@Bloomburger

Reading some of the posts on this thread makes me despair.

These people are humans, their lives are so shit they're willing to risk drowning to make a better life for themselves and their children and you absolute vile people are getting pissy about them being put up in hotels.

They need to be welcomed, their skills utilised and for them to be made productive members of our society.

It's the nasty uncivilised, suspicious members of our society which force them to work on the black market and live in horrendous conditions.

What a ridiculous post

There is nothing ridiculous in wanting your country to help desperate people from another country. My friend is from Lebanon, she went through hell to make it to the UK.

To answer the OP, yes we are overpopulated in that we don't have adequate services and infrastructure to properly house our own citizens, let alone the many thousands of economic migrants who choose to come all the way to the UK for its benefits, healthcare, etc, and knowing that the system is so crappy they won't be returned home. The vast majority are looking for a higher standard of living/welfare/healthcare than what they have in their country of origin, and wish to bypass the usual immigration rules. I too would like to go and live in a country with a higher standard of living, be given housing and money to live on, but I wouldn't be allowed to because they have rules. I have lived and worked in other countries and had to follow their strict immigration regulations which included having a medical, job offer to go to, proof of money in the bank, to pay for private healthcare etc. I didn't try to sneak in illegally.

We need these states to be stable. We - here in the UK - cannot house everyone in the UK, it is already overpopulated; we - as a species - cannot keep both increasing our population exponentially and rendering entire regions of the world uninhabitable, both environmentally and politically. The 'politically' is particularly annoying.

I'd be interested in hearing any suggestions about how we westerners can help achieve that in places like Lebanon without being reviled as colonisers, colonialists, racists and imperialists. We cannot win. They cannot keep coming here.

@Pepperwort

We need these states to be stable. We - here in the UK - cannot house everyone in the UK, it is already overpopulated; we - as a species - cannot keep both increasing our population exponentially and rendering entire regions of the world uninhabitable, both environmentally and politically. The 'politically' is particularly annoying.

I'd be interested in hearing any suggestions about how we westerners can help achieve that in places like Lebanon without being reviled as colonisers, colonialists, racists and imperialists. We cannot win. They cannot keep coming here.

Yep, to the 'politically' inhabitable part. We've successfully become a very attractive nation to live in, because we're a lovely, democratic nice place to live on a global scale...

... characteristics which are all predicated on the fact that we gladly export our cruelty and suffering elsewhere. Sweat shops, oil wars etc are all fundamental to the present standard of living that we take for granted in the UK, because other countries are happy to treat their citizens like crap.

Our own system keeps us just enough dependent on keeping on our ratwheel society because on the whole, we have it good.

But it's really, REALLY interesting to see this play out with the pandemic, and see people choosing to invest in their local economies and do without purchases to enjoy a simpler mode of life.

(I'm beginning to idly wonder if instead of universal basic income, we should have universal basic housing - home security with water and basic heating would be provided then the rest is up to you... but I haven't thought it through much yet)

Quite simply, we are not. Under resourced yes, over crowded cities with poor housing, yes. Over crowded as a country, no.

ginhamstarfish what were you escaping from? What made you fear for your life and leave everyone and everything you had ever known to flee to an unknown land? Did you put your children on a road to an unknown destination just clinging to the hope that they would survive so they could have a better life? I bet you don't even let your DC if you have any, walk to school on their own.

@Parker231

There is nothing ridiculous in wanting your country to help desperate people from another country. My friend is from Lebanon, she went through hell to make it to the UK.

But where is the line drawn??

Do we take all of the ones from France currently waiting to get here?

Or do we go further and go to all these countries and pick them all up and bring them all over to save them the journey?

Would that be the solution??

Shall we just have open borders in every country in the world so freedom to move wherever you like is the norm??

Should the US open up its borders to South America and proclaim everyone welcome?? There’s millions of Mexicans that would love to move the be US for a better life?

Completely understandable why they want to move from war torn countries to safety, but by passing several counties to get here, isn’t really the point....

We should all take out fair share and help out but it shouldn’t be up to them to get here themselves. You can’t just break the law and be told oh well just stay. That will mane the problem worse

The UK doesn’t take anywhere near it’s fair share. In the main, richer countries such as the U.K., leave the refugee problem to poorer countries.

If it's purely a numbers issue, how will we accommodate all the Hong Kong residents the government is planning to offer residency to ?

Even if we took in all the people waiting in France it will still not be the end of it. There are still more and more making the journey to France, should we take in all those too or when do we say no more.

The UK takes way more than its fair share. If you look at Japan, how many asylum seekers are accepted each year? Under 50. The way to solve the immigrant problem is for each civilized country to accept a quantity of refugees based on the space available. Claim asylum in the first safe country you can get to, then be sent to wherever there is room.

Not overpopulated in general.

The problem is that we have too many people living in specific parts of the country rather than spread out evenly and in some places the infrastructure (housing, health, education, transport) is not coping with the demand.

People tend to live close to where job opportunities are, so we have a lot of people who crammed into cities and nearby commuter towns. It will be interesting to see if home working will help change that.

I would say that places like London & the South East are definitely overcrowded and the infrastructure cannot cope as it is.

I am someone who immigrated 30 years ago to the UK and now a citizen but I completely believe that we can't continue to welcome people from abroad without checks without affecting those who already live here. To me that's just common sense.

My friend from Lebanon made her way to the UK as she spoke some English. She is now working in the UK.