To think, without upsetting anybody, we are massively overpopulated on this tiny Island??? What sensible non punitive solutions are there??

[PasstheBucket89]

Its pretty relevant with all the talk about migrant boats, priti patel saying she will make the passage unviable etc she has done some awful things, it makes my blood run cold tbh i doubt she cares about the safety of them in that boats. But, what di we do, and when suggestions are made its often motivated by hate not quality of life issues. And yes, the ageing massively adds to the overpopulation aswell, but what should we do? reasonably? this tiny Island is massively overpopulated, it doesn't benefit anyone to be crammed in like sardines like this, massively effects access to housing, healthcare, education etc, What should the gov do, not adding to the hostile environment??.

@Keepithidden

Thecatsthecats - I agree completely, it is all so homogenously linked, and separating out individual elements is a nightmare because they impact on each other e.g. poor = less consumption = lower quality of life (although even that is subject to much debate itslef!).

I suppose what I'm trying to get at is that "not enough food, infrastructure, healthcare etc." as reasons for limiting population is too simplistic and it's so much more complicated than it first appears.

I've kind of come to the conclusion that, like a wildlife documentary, the species just needs to be allowed to wreck itself.

Not being religious, I don't see inherent value in human life, or in the present ecology of the planet. Whatever environmentalists say, we aren't capable of rendering the planet wholly unfit for inhabitation. Even if we caused a great mass extinction - we'll, those have happened before, and each iteration has been a very different planet. Who's to say there's anything superior in the current map of continents and humans, and pandas and ocelots and prawns. It's actually pretty unnatural to preserve the status quo indefinitely.

I'm not a destructive or passive person, and also not a wasteful one - I'll continue to act ethically and not actively harm the planet. But this is way too big a battle to devote my petty human life to.

Went to a nearby area to walk and the developers are trying to build 300 new houses on green belt land with narrow country lanes and no infrastructure.

More cars and pollution

thecats this is where I'm kind of heading, well put.

@itsaratrap

Interesting how many Brutish people are more than happy to have their car washed for a fiver or a set of acrylics stuck on for 15 quid by immigrants.

It would be rather racist not to though wouldn't it?

hellequine bloody hell what a nightmare. I'm so interested to know where this is but of course can't know. This is all rather dystopian and I actually think that is the future. Dystopia and then a mass extinction of land mammals.

@Stressing

thecats this is where I'm kind of heading, well put.

I forgot to mention the alternatives properly:

1. A collective will is agreed between sufficient global nations and corporations agreeing an action plan to sufficiently address the problem, including sustainable and humane population reduction programme and PROPER emissions and consumption measures.
2. Punitive and restrictive population control measures are imposed from above, as well as legal enforcement of environmental legislation.
3. A mass effect natural disaster wipes out sufficient of us that we're forced to start again.
4. We bumble along as we are and possibly wipe ourselves out.

1 is spectacularly unlikely before crisis point.
We've already seen 2, but who likes the idea of that much state interference, and who gets to decide WHO gets to breed... Yeah, let's not go there again.
3 - well, this pandemic is giving it a shot, but it's unlikely it will outsmart us. A mega volcano going off or solar flare disaster is probably more likely to cause substantial global damage, but are rare and unpredictable.
Which is why I landed on 4...

The problem is Thecatsthecats, we are a remarkably resourceful species, we live in all climates across varying terrains and under some very harsh environmental conditions. With sufficiently brutal species threatening events some of us, probably a breeding population capacity would survive!

I think to truly wipe the slate clean we need a Xenomorph or two, even with viruses there are some mutants who display immunity...

Fortunately Gaia will always win though, as someone famous once said "life finds a way" and nature abhors a vacuum.

SchrodingersImmigrant Tbf police lost number of areas. Many to white drug dealing gangs that's a very racist remark, if someone had said that about black knife gangs it would never be allowed.

I reckon you are right on your prediction cats, humans have an aversion for being told what to do and authorities will simply not risk their popularity by taking any critical action; even if the human race depends on it. Politics today is all about short term theatre and people pleasing.

But I reckon keep is right too. It's likely to be a dwindling and a levelling out rather than a complete and sudden apocalypse. When the Wheels fall off it'll be the end of some civilisations; especially the ones that have become bloated, unadaptable and entitled.

Like cats I will do my bit not to be part of the problem, but I'm resigned to a bleak future as cannot see any other trajectory for the UK, or the rest of the west. Especially when Boris is chirping 'build, build build' and the erection of 'Hong Kong 2' in the North is in the running. Building on natural habitats is the last thing any country should be doing right now and I'm in despair that it's even on the table when we're sitting here in yet another 'freak' heatwave which seem to be becoming strangely frequent.

So depressing to see how many people genuinely believe the broken state of our health, education and social care systems is down to over population rather than the total gutting and mismanagement of their funding over the last 20 years. The Conservative party and popular press have really done a good number on us.
Do people know that councils have lost the majority of their funding from central government in the last ten years and the government’s stated aim is to stop funding them altogether? That total school spending per pupil has dropped 8% in the last 10 years? Or that we spend less on health as a proportion of GDP than any other G7 country apart from Italy?

I believe that the answer to those issues is NOT to add to the population any further. That's not the same as saying health and social issues are because of over population. Just for the record.

@mswales

Yes, there is underfunding of infrastructure. Yes, much infrastructure is inadequate. But that simply does not negate the issue of natural resources and population. This is also not a simplistic 'tories bad' scenario. Infrastructure has been underfunded by years, including under successive govts at different times (by infrastructure I also refer to roads/rail/ports/power plants etc and all the less headlining grabbing stuff). I work in town and regional planning. Balancing population growth (esp when sudden and unplanned) is a constant balance and struggle due to competing land uses, EU wildlife/ SSSIs, landfill regs, EU carbon emissions targets, need for agricultural land, flood plains, increased tree planting (the national forest), wildlife corridors, air quality regulations, new infrastructure, ensuring sufficient land is set aside for employment growth and of course, housing, to name but a few. Yes people want new hospitals, drs surgeries and schools (which are substantially funded through s106 obligations attached to new housing provision). But there are so many competing interests that need to be balanced. And no one wants things built near them or on greenbelt land. I have worked for 25 years in Planning Policy and UK/EU Law for central govt (under successive govts and am a political, having no particular political allegiance), and been involved in public inquiries at regional and local level across the country (assessing regional and local plans (which look 15-20 years ahead). And I can assure you that, by far the biggest problem that we face is the physical and competing requirements of land use and land shortages. I would consider many other countries to be overpopulated, despite them having vastly different economies and infrastructure investment (i.e. Hong Kong and Monaco V Bangladesh). The UK is the 17th most densely populated country in the world. It is also one of the least sustainable in terms of natural resources/food production etc. If you believe that we are not densely populated, then really, there is very little in way of argument that the entire planet is overpopulated (to the tune of approximately 2 billion people). So, you may find this all very depressing, but I find it equally frustrating and depressing that people are in denial about overpopulation because it fails to align with their political narrative! Sure, the allocation and investment of those resources is a political issue (although it is worth looking at investment across the board of successive govts over the last 50+ years). But ultimately the question of natural resources is not a political one. It is one of natural and human geography.

@mswales

So depressing to see how many people genuinely believe the broken state of our health, education and social care systems is down to over population rather than the total gutting and mismanagement of their funding over the last 20 years. The Conservative party and popular press have really done a good number on us. Do people know that councils have lost the majority of their funding from central government in the last ten years and the government’s stated aim is to stop funding them altogether? That total school spending per pupil has dropped 8% in the last 10 years? Or that we spend less on health as a proportion of GDP than any other G7 country apart from Italy?

Then all the more reason to control immigration as it isn't helping this problem

Well france is massive. Perhaps we could rent a section of france and run it as part of the uk

Jesus Christ. I can't believe what I'm reading here.....

Empire died long ago dear!

No wonder Brexit is happening....

Why don't we just encourage smoking?
Shorter (but perhaps less stressful) life expectancies will help relieve overpopulation issues, and the billions raised in tax (and saved on pensions and social care) would help pay for improved infrastructure.

I think the infrastructure might be the issue sheep. We can accommodate more people just not people wanting/needing houses, schools, roads and runways. It's what comes with the people that's the problem. We are organic matter and thus fully compostable.

People who think the UK is not overpopulated because only 12% I’d built on are forgetting that the rest of the space is needed to feed you all. And for green spaces to provide a good quality of life. You have over 700 people per square mile. The part of the US where I live is 38 people per square mile. I need my space!

We can't house our own population so why should we be housing people who arrive here? Most of the small boats that arrive here have come from the detention centres in France, why aren't they providing housing for these refugees. While ever we have thousands of people on council housing lists & people stuck in hostels or sleeping on the streets we should not be accepting refugees.

Where do people get their ideas from that we are over populated because of immigrants “stealing” our resources?

From the press. The press who are owned by very rich people.

The likes of Aaron Banks and Farage, who like to stir up the fear. The likes of Boris Johnson who made things up.

I wonder why these people with all of these resources feel the need to point at desperate human beings and make them the enemy?

Why?

I can only conclude it’s so that they can continue to distract us from the fact that they’ve got very rich off of the backs of others, hoarding far too much for themselves and their friends.

Our resources are infinite but it’s not immigrants who are the thieves here.

Our government has also been the root cause of many many global problems, feeding weapons, destroying nations. The legacy of the empire lives on and we never did fix it. In fact that mindset still lives on.

People need to learn their history.

We have enough houses in this country for everyone. It is possible to house all the rough sleepers. The hidden homeless as well.

The issue is the lack of “affordable” housing. Not housing per se.

But landlords do not want to offer lower rents because they want to make money.

House builders don’t want to build affordable homes because they want to make money.

Banks don’t want to lend at lower rates because they want to make money.

It’s all about making money. And where does that money go? Money is not infinite. The more of it that gets hoovered up means less for everyone else at the bottom.

It’s so complicated, it’s easier for people to blame the immigrant, the poor, the “feckless”.

There is also all the wealthy, off shore investors who have bought up property in the UK and they are empty, it’s a scandal people can buy property who don’t live here, there should be a huge tax on these properties which then helps funding for the homeless. To be fair the people arriving by boat are a drop in the ocean compared to how many people migrate to the UK.

@Arthursleep

(which are substantially funded through s106 obligations attached to new housing provision).

Do you have any figures for the amount of money secured in this way ? And how transparent is the process, so for instance local people can see that X development meant an extension was built at Z school ?

We have overcrowded cities (inflated house prices and long commutes) because of a culture of presenteeism. If more people could work from home, then those "London" jobs could be done wherever, people could live in the less densely populated areas.

Wealth distribution is a massive issue, especially people buying up lots of property, not enough investment in actual affordable housing, and no rent caps. I've always thought it had to come from taxation and classic socialist policy making, but now I wonder if technology has better answers. I'm not sure what they will be, but a move away from presenteeism would be a good start.

The debate keeps veering away from population and back to allocation of resources. This isn't the point. Yes we could house and feed far more people but not under the current capitalist system we currently have. It's not good for anyone if more and more people are added to the desirable, yet wholly unsustainable way of life that is modern day western civilisation. Whether or not it's morally right that the UK takes more migrants (and I stress migrants NOT refugees as of course we do have an obligation to take the latter) is besides the point. We can't if we want to create the sustainable, self sufficient country we need to sustain life.

We've run out of land. And yes we could ban second home ownership and ensure all UK housing is actually lived in, but that still doesn't solve the issue. No amount of building affordable homes is going to solve this, quite the opposite, it'll add to it because the only way out is to start respecting the planet and living with nature not against it.

We need to free up quality agricultural land for organic farming and maintain wild green spaces for absorbing carbon emissions, reducing global warming and to provide civilians with the natural environment they need for their health and well being, including fresh air and water, which at the moment we don't have, or have in dwindling supply.

Changing the way we live just so we can cram more people in because it's perceived to be the right thing to do doesn't solve the problem. All that will happen is that the native population and the immigrant population will go down with a sinking ship. Whereas much of the immigrant population will presumably have another home to go to and dual nationality to take advantage of, much of the native population won't, so that's one privilege the natives are missing out on; the privilege of abandoning the sinking ship when the time comes.

Sure, we need to take away from the people who have too much,
The gross and disproportionate amount of wealth distribution is a travesty in the UK. But we also need to reduce the population, give back the land, go back to a simpler, more holistic way of living that will involve a great deal of doing without, and leave it there.

Then we can look at how to incorporate more migrants into this new, sustainable environment under a fair, sustainable and ethical process that benefits all. It's the only way out.