To think, without upsetting anybody, we are massively overpopulated on this tiny Island??? What sensible non punitive solutions are there??

[PasstheBucket89]

Its pretty relevant with all the talk about migrant boats, priti patel saying she will make the passage unviable etc she has done some awful things, it makes my blood run cold tbh i doubt she cares about the safety of them in that boats. But, what di we do, and when suggestions are made its often motivated by hate not quality of life issues. And yes, the ageing massively adds to the overpopulation aswell, but what should we do? reasonably? this tiny Island is massively overpopulated, it doesn't benefit anyone to be crammed in like sardines like this, massively effects access to housing, healthcare, education etc, What should the gov do, not adding to the hostile environment??.

@Pepperwort

Interesting idea Schrodingers news.sky.com/story/channel-migrants-brought-ashore-in-uk-for-unprecedented-10th-day-in-a-row-12048280 "Kent County Council has said it could be just "days away" from being unable to look after more children seeking asylum after making it to England."

I don't believe in coincidences like news like this dominating the papers just at the right time when recession is about to be announced. I missed this article, but still. It will now die off and appear only when masses get angry at gov. Divert the attention and blame. That's the game

Lack of education and wealth inequality are statistically the biggest drivers behind people having more children than others... you wanna do something about people having large families then adress those things.
However I would ask you who you think is gonna be looking after the ageing population in the future? And i do not think the birthrate in the UK is rising that high or that we are overcrowded actually..
Its just a shit distribution if resources and shit regulation of businesses and allowance of overconsumption caused by the right wing shower of shitlords we have in government....
Might be an idea to start with voting them out before we go in there with all the eco fascist eugenics nonesense

Late to the party here and I’m glad to see that most of what would want to add has already been said.

I find it so incredibly sad that so much of our countryside is being built on. I don’t believe (currently) there is a housing shortage. Refugees and migrants aside (and please don’t shout racist as I can assure you I’m not, I truly feel that to strip down this issue to it’s bare bones is, for the moment to take migrants and refugees out of the equation for a second) I personally don’t know anyone that is homeless (and I’m not talking about the literal homeless here, there is often so many more factors to this) due to a lack of housing. I know people that are in their 30’s and still living with mum and dad because they’re desperately trying to save money for a deposit. I know people that can get off the renting train and onto the housing ladder due to the high cost of rents. I know people who are stuck in 1 bedroom flats that can’t afford have a children due to them not being able to afford a 2/3 bedroom home.

I would say a massive part of the above isn’t that there isn’t enough housing, I’d say there isn’t enough AFFORDABLE housing. I live in a county where house prices have rocketed in the last 30 years and a lot of the locals are now sadly priced out. A lot of this is because it’s a tourist destination, the sheer volume of Londoners buying second homes up here, or even relocating themselves is eye watering. There are thousands of homes just sitting empty, apart from a few weeks of the year. There are homes which locals would struggle to be able to buy due to salaries here being lower. They are easily and quickly bought by people moving up from London/ Kent that have sold their property for £700,000 and think nothing of buying a house here for £450,000. A price that is out of reach here for a lot of locals.

There really needs to be a STOP put on second home buying, especially in areas like mine. I was in Canada last year and I can’t remember where we were but in this particular (very popular tourist destination) the locals told us there was a law there which meant you couldn’t but property in this place unless you worked there. This meant that it was full of locals as they weren’t priced out, unlike other parts of Canada where sadly there are no locals left as so much of the property is bought by overseas investors who only use it once or twice a year. Literally whole towns that are purely made up of holiday let’s. It’s so sad.

There’s so much more I want to write but have to leave for work. But I totally agree it’s the poster who said every country needs to look after its own citizens first. Doing so would have a dramatically positive effect I’m sure. Once countries start looking after their native citizens and revolutionise agriculture to ensure they could feed their native nation if needed, surely then we’d all be in a much better position to help migrants and refugees? I know this is all idealistic crap, we’re too far down the road for this to be viable but something certainly needs to be done.

The second home/ buy to let issue is a BIG one and IMO this needs addressing politically and soon. It cannot be allowed to continue.

Jesus, sorry for all the typos/ bad grammar in the above, typing furiously as I’m late for work

I think it is harder for those who don't have a chance of getting affordable housing to have dc. The needed homes need to go to the people here or have an affiliation with the area and whose families have contributed e.g. paid council tax to the local authorities.

Importing more people doesn't help the ageing population situation as they themselves need housing and healthcare and will get old.

The recent newcomers on boats are realistically not going to be doing healthcare work or even paying NI or income tax possibly so more of a chocolate tea pot

@Dongdingdong

Yes we are overpopulated IMO. There are people who profess to care about the environment yet in the same breath, have no qualms about this government’s plans to build thousands of houses on swathes of beautiful open countryside. It’s such a bizarre contradiction

And quality of life is also a factor. Yes we could increase our population by 20, 50, 100 million and build over every single bit of countryside to accommodate it. But it would be a highly unpleasant place to live.

It's already fairly unpleasant.

I happened to visit several countries in succession all with a much lower population than ours. New Zealand was a particularly striking example.

A REAL focus on conservation, that came across in every place, business and service we used.

The majority of houses we saw were bungalows on larger plots. Not cheek by jowl terraces. There was so much trust, geniality and positivity from the locals. We were offered a loan of someone's car, and have since heard a couple of anecdotes of strangers being loaned cars - it's a bit of a theme.

I was concerned about the amount of driving I needed to do as the sole driver on a road trip, but there were two very brief hold ups in 2500 miles of driving and I don't recall a single pothole.

I'm not saying it was without its problems, and obviously there are holiday goggles, but it's something I've noticed about every country with a lower population density (and the parts of this country that have a lower population density).

I think of it as like one of those chemical reactions where it happens faster the more active substance is included. Except the active substances in UK life are stress and arseholes - and the more people there are, the more you're likely to react to a stressed out arsehole and therefore turn into a stressed out arsehole and piss someone else off.

It's a virus with a high R rate

In a way the current Covid situation is bringing what you say to light, cats.

Just been shopping in big town centre. It was busy, but social distancing means fewer people are in any given space. There are no big groups, shoving or queuing. A false environment that UK residents are wholly unused to. And pleasant. People are more courteous and generally life is easier.

But, normally, I get up especially early to get into town before the crowds/traffic start. You might get a small window between 9 and 11 when it's bearable. Then, normality kicks in. It's heaving. Noise, bawdiness, bad tempers, people acting as though you are not there and shoving you out the way.

I have to run at 7.30 in the morning so I can breathe clean air. Sunday afternoon trips out are even worse. Traffic queued up on motorways, beauty spots looking like Piccadilly Circus.

And I don't even live in a City!

Overcrowding is not good for any of us. No wonder mental illness and anxiety is on the rise. Nowadays, if someone gets murdered, it doesn't even make the main news. Look at the disgusting behaviour of the holiday makers on our coastal regions this year and the disregard people have for our natural habitats. There is no longer a 'love thy neighbour' culture. We don't care about each other. We're losing our humanity and our communities in this county and I'm not blaming any particular demographic just the fact that there are too many people and so it is too easy to feel insignificant, overlooked and angry.

And totally agree with PP who says about ripping out the heart of places like Cornwall and Highlands. They are turning into little tourist goldmines, again, just there to flog as giant theme parks for all they are worth until they have been ruined, when the real beauty of these places lie in the local communities and their products traditions not in marketing them as hip lifestyle escapes. Cornwall is not the 'riviera of britain'. The temperature there is not warmer and it's not sunnier. But the tourist Board flogs it hard as a playground for the middle classes and second homers paying no heed to the fact that people who are NOT in tourism actually live there! Let them be the voice of Cornwall for gods sake.

We have lost sight of what is important and have ended up only judging life by its commercial value.

The government will keep the shops open and build shopping centres on our green belt to encourage us to keep buying stuff to put in our little terrace houses and put on makeover shows so we keep aspiring to owning more and more, and importing people to keep the tills ringing coz they all need stuff to put in their new build houses in and their children will go to the local school, which is overcrowded so more parents will pay for private school fees and families will jump on the airbus six times a year to go back to Poland to see their families, thus keeping airports maxed out and people employed whilst two parents have to work full time and pay income tax so they can get a mortgage to afford one of those small houses and then need pay for nursery places for their kids who were born at the NHS hospital to a midwife that needs to work extra shifts to pay her rent, but it's ok she's paying tax on that income and because there's nothing to do on a Sunday she goes to shops to buy clothes she needs for her trip to Ibiza to escape the misery of living in bloody Britain right now.

If you think immigration is about social care, you're not looking at the whole picture. It's not, it's about economics and wealth generation. If you choose Bicester village, buying stuff, working all the hours and cheap holidays over a more relaxed, cleaner and more sustainable way of life then you've got it. The government are delivering what you want in droves. Just remember it can't and won't last.

Stressing, Amen.

We have 16m more people than when I was born so a massive population increase since then and obviously much less housing as a result and more people wanting to live alone.

Wed shall just have to see what happens in the next few decades about the population explosion. The planet and other animals might do better if 5 in 6 of us died off actually or indeed all humans did.

[quote Arthersleep]@mswales

Yes, there is underfunding of infrastructure. Yes, much infrastructure is inadequate. But that simply does not negate the issue of natural resources and population. This is also not a simplistic 'tories bad' scenario. Infrastructure has been underfunded by years, including under successive govts at different times (by infrastructure I also refer to roads/rail/ports/power plants etc and all the less headlining grabbing stuff). I work in town and regional planning. Balancing population growth (esp when sudden and unplanned) is a constant balance and struggle due to competing land uses, EU wildlife/ SSSIs, landfill regs, EU carbon emissions targets, need for agricultural land, flood plains, increased tree planting (the national forest), wildlife corridors, air quality regulations, new infrastructure, ensuring sufficient land is set aside for employment growth and of course, housing, to name but a few. Yes people want new hospitals, drs surgeries and schools (which are substantially funded through s106 obligations attached to new housing provision). But there are so many competing interests that need to be balanced. And no one wants things built near them or on greenbelt land. I have worked for 25 years in Planning Policy and UK/EU Law for central govt (under successive govts and am a political, having no particular political allegiance), and been involved in public inquiries at regional and local level across the country (assessing regional and local plans (which look 15-20 years ahead). And I can assure you that, by far the biggest problem that we face is the physical and competing requirements of land use and land shortages. I would consider many other countries to be overpopulated, despite them having vastly different economies and infrastructure investment (i.e. Hong Kong and Monaco V Bangladesh). The UK is the 17th most densely populated country in the world. It is also one of the least sustainable in terms of natural resources/food production etc. If you believe that we are not densely populated, then really, there is very little in way of argument that the entire planet is overpopulated (to the tune of approximately 2 billion people). So, you may find this all very depressing, but I find it equally frustrating and depressing that people are in denial about overpopulation because it fails to align with their political narrative! Sure, the allocation and investment of those resources is a political issue (although it is worth looking at investment across the board of successive govts over the last 50+ years). But ultimately the question of natural resources is not a political one. It is one of natural and human geography.[/quote]
This is really interesting, thanks Arthur. Great to get all this info and context from someone who really knows what they're talking about

Someone mentioned converting shops to housing but I am sure that, due to the many requirements for well insulated housing, access for disabled people, health and safety, converting shops is probably very expensive and complicated, therefore much more expensive than throwing up a new estate somewhere.

I have already heard of many new problems with converting ships to housing.

What you absolutely have to understand is that in Britain now nothing is done for the good of the population concerned. Everything is about how much money someone else can get away with making out of them, legally or illegally. On the latter’s case they try not to be caught, but the possibility of being caught is factored in as a possible cost and potential profits adjusted. This is a business model that’s been established for a while now. As it applies to shops and housing try
blog.shelter.org.uk/2020/06/permitting-shop-to-housing-conversions-just-more-permitted-slum-building/amp/

“all the eco fascist eugenics nonesense” We have indeed lost sight of what is important and there is no way of getting through to some people who have now made a religion out of being politically correct. Facts, figures, reason and logic, the practical realities that populations have to be fed, doesn’t matter where it comes from, it all fails, nothing gets through. FWIW I used to work for councils and I know their situation very well.

Ships? Shops!

What can the UK authorities do realistically though to stop these boats?

I thought it was illegal to leave them there (maritime law) do they have to help them and once they are in British soil, if they don’t have documents, they can’t make them stateless.....

I don’t know what the answer is.

so they have to help them I mean

Not sure if it was a hoax but there was a video of asylum seekers being put up in a nice Paddington hotel - if it's true - why?

Plus the Covid situation

There needs to be new legislation

I don't understand why they'd be put up in a London hotel? It's already the most overcrowded place in the whole UK. There's already such a huge crisis of affordable housing there, families living in rooms for years, and high numbers of street homeless. Wouldn't it make more sense to house them in less populated areas where housing is more accessible?

It was a video but I'm not sure how true it is. The BBC never report where the people go

A Hostel would be more justified

Some were also put up at a Hilton Hotel in the Midlands which has closed to other guests. Lots of british people have never been to a hotel as they cannot afford it as tax is so high so it does seem a bit much that someone who breaks the law and also risks the life of their child in moving from a safe country which is France get put up at our expense in hotels. I have just driven from out here in zone 5 to the City and back, a bit of a trip down memory lane today for me talking about his that route was in the early 80s when I first did it and how it has changed. However much the same in the 80s -they could not get teachers in London as pay was so poor compared to house and rent prices so we passed today the school flat I started married life in as the school had to provide housing; then we drove past what used to be a huge nurses' home because again in the 80s nurses could not afford London rents etc etc

I don’t see that it’s worth getting worked up about some poor asylum seekers being put up in a hostel, especially over COVID. I expect the authorities were just trying to find somewhere to, well, shove ‘em, quite bluntly. There was a demand to get people off the streets if you recall. Being locked in a small room through lockdown, in a strange country, awaiting news of due process would not be my idea of luxury.

Apparently it was a very expensive hotel in Paddington rather than a hostel.

Unless it had a private swimming pool and sauna in each room it still seems like trying to find things to be upset about. In lockdown they would still have been heavily restricted.

Things we can do about it would need people used to dealing with it, but I would like to see more support closer to their own countries for those that collapse. That would pick up those who can’t travel so easily. Any way of putting forward the message that Britain is full and cannot feed and house the entire world, every opportunity to quash the laughable idea that the streets are paved with gold or some such, should be taken. France’s reps said that Britain was encouraging people to come - whatever they meant by that should be stopped. Support women’s rights everywhere too.

Challenge the idea that immigration is easy everywhere: it isn’t, and isn’t supposed to be.

Our island isn’t “massively overpopulated” and the numbers of people arriving in boats are negligible. The idea that we need to grow enough food for our population is just silly. There’s no reason we can’t import food and focus on the industries were best at.

The island is very underpopulated in some areas but overpopulated in others. If you find London too crowded there are loads of places you could move to without leaving the uk. May not be a job there tho which is presumably why you live in London.