To think, without upsetting anybody, we are massively overpopulated on this tiny Island??? What sensible non punitive solutions are there??

[PasstheBucket89]

Its pretty relevant with all the talk about migrant boats, priti patel saying she will make the passage unviable etc she has done some awful things, it makes my blood run cold tbh i doubt she cares about the safety of them in that boats. But, what di we do, and when suggestions are made its often motivated by hate not quality of life issues. And yes, the ageing massively adds to the overpopulation aswell, but what should we do? reasonably? this tiny Island is massively overpopulated, it doesn't benefit anyone to be crammed in like sardines like this, massively effects access to housing, healthcare, education etc, What should the gov do, not adding to the hostile environment??.

@MistressMounthaven

I think our blame culture has a lot to answer for- who at a senior level would put their head above the parapet eg to propose cuts to 'eradicate waste' when they are then blamed for any remotely connected problem that appears. Teaching critical thinking, stats and philosophy at school might help us stop being so influenced by the latest headlines all the time.

It's not so much waste as extravagant or inflated spending: stuff like spending £2k on a sofa for a barely-used reception area.

A lot of it is the fear of underspending a budget and potentially getting less the year after.

The thing is ... there's a lot of hidden pressures with immigration from a local perspective. It's not just about housing and public services, but also managing communities and expectations. There's also a public health angle, and unfortunately, a sectarian one. Then you have issues with isolationism, anti-social behaviour, different cultural attitudes ... it's really not easy, particularly when the influx is significant.

I think there is this idea that resistance to immigration flows only comes from the English community, and that's not a very helpful perspective because then it tends to be seen as "racism" rather than the complexity of managing a set of very different cultural communities within a certain geographical space.

Indeed, some of the most explosive fault lines actually occur between more established former immigrant communities and the recently arrived -- as more established immigrant communities tend to be on the sharper end.

You have religious and sectarian issues; you have culture clashes; you have cultural differences in how people perceive rubbish, parking, driving, noise and appropriate public behaviour. There's also differences in how different cultures perceive public space.

For example, one of the most unexplored fault lines is actually attitudes towards alcohol consumption: the spectrum for this is now pretty wide with traditional English communities somewhere in the middle. We now have migrant communities where the excessive consumption of spirits is completely normal, living side by side with communities where alcohol is prohibited. It just a disaster for any kind of cohesion.

IMV, we cannot carry on experiencing the kinds of numbers we've seen over the last twenty years. It's just unviable. We cannot settle people appropriately. Things need to calm down a bit, and migrants need time to make adjustments as do host communities.

Isn’t a huge part of the problem how city-centric jobs are? Cities and commuter belts are massively overpopulated but there’s plenty of room in much of the country. Especially Wales! We need more jobs that can be done 100% from or to create regional hubs where companies get tax breaks for creating jobs in rural areas.

I live in a semi rural area but many of the villages had factories a century ago. Now there are no jobs here apart from restaurants/taxis and other stuff to service the commuters back from London.

We're 32nd, Number 1 is Monaco, ignoring Macau, and they seem happy enough!

It's not massively overpopulated and you really need to stop believing the gutter press that love to misinform and push anti-immigration buttons. Even quick Google research would show that much of the UK isn't even built upon. I fail to understand why some people blindly follow the illogical and untrue that can so very easily be disproved

I live in the SE and it is over populated. Even if in some areas it is not the infrastructure is not always great.

@DeeCeeCherry please RTFT as we’ve been through this. Or even just the first 5 pages. I’m afraid it’s you who are misinformed, and as for the gutter press, sometimes they are trying to tell the hopelessly out-of-touch some home truths.

Yes we are overpopulated - if you consider just England it is the most densely populated country in Europe. Nowhere near enough value is given to agricultural land for food production.

Although I admit I’m not confident of Plan’s figures. Iirc our farmers currently feed about half -2/3rds of the country. Not quite as bad as they make out, but it’s not 100%.

many areas of the UK are considered to be over populated in terms of water stress I believe?
www.iow.gov.uk/azservices/documents/2782-FE1-Areas-of-Water-Stress.pdf

@Pepperwort thank you for your kind words. It is indeed something that has to be lived before one can really appreciate what the true effects migration has on an area. It is not just about numbers it is about complete cultural change, down to the shops and facilities that are available right through to obtaining a school where you will not be bullied for being the 'wrong' religion. As I opened the window this morning the stench hit me as it always does ( it is less powerful in winter but there nevertheless) and I thought how nice it would be to breathe air that didn't smell of sewage.

You are right it used to be only the worst of the inner cities that were like this too and in fact, in living memory, this area was even considered rather good, never the poshest, but good.

You may ask why haven't we moved sooner? Well, we bought many years ago whilst house prices were low, the area as I say was better and with the intention of moving on. We all know what happened to house prices then and a series of reverses jobwise have kept us here and the only move we now can afford would be almost like for like and saddle us with still more mortgage which at our ages we'd be unlikely to get (I'm self-employed which would add another spanner in the works). So we stayed and the mortgage is close to being paid and despite the area (due to high demand) we would have a lot of equity in the house.

Now my DH job looks precarious and the possibilities for a new job would be very limited. He came here many years ago from Southern Europe, never with the intention of staying ironically, but two children and a marriage later here we are. We can buy a larger house with land in his home country and be mortgage-free with money in our pockets to start a business for him and continue mine.

As I stated before, living in one of these areas it most definitely is overpopulated and that's with having added new and modern facilities. There simply feels like there is no peace, you can never get away from people and rubbish and noise. Sirens wail at all times, there is always fly-tipping or litter, the roads are crowded and highly dangerous (unlicensed drivers are a huge problem here). We have frequent police raids around here. DH was talking to one of the PCSO's here and he said: "We've lost the area".

I think we've all seen the pictures of the overcrowded beaches and country towns this summer. This is what it is like for us only it's not just in summer it is all the time without relief.

Those saying that only 10% etc of land is built on etc. Would you like to build what I have to live with everywhere? Should we repeat it? Should we force out that pesky animal life and jam it full until it stinks to high heaven and be knee-deep in the litter? Because that is what it will be like.

At least I can go. Even with a price to pay, I will be going.

We aren’t overpopulated. And our birth rate is falling. We need younger people here to support an ageing population.
We also need better infrastructure and money spent on health and roads and public services.

The UK is one of the most densely populated countries in Europe. Other than very small countries like San Marino and Gibraltar only Holland is more densely populated than us. We are far more densely populated than France, Germany, Spain etc. Just because we have some “unused” space, does not mean we should build on it, this pandemic has shown that we need to have farmland in the UK for food security reasons.

Of course we are overpopulated. This has nothing to do with planning/greenbelt laws/inadequate infrastructure/capitalism/politics. It matters not that in 50 years time our population will start to decrease. We will still be massively overpopulated. We could currently only produce enough food for 1/4 of the population. We are (depending upon whether you include independent states within countries/tiny islands) the 17th most populated country in the world. The world as a whole in overpopulated by approximately 2 billion people. This isn't a political issue ( migrants in dinghys V the Tory govt and capitalism etc). If you don't except that our country is overpopulated, then you can't really question that the world as a whole is overpopulated; that this is having a devastating effect on wildlife and climate change through deforestation etc. This really isn't, or at least shouldn't be a political issue. It's a natural resources issue. Having then, established that the country and indeed the world is overpopulated, then politics can come into play in terms of strategy and distribution of natural resources. But viewing the situation from the start as a political one, through either red or blue tinted glasses, fails to take into consideration the very questionable of sustainability.

@DeeCeeCherry

It's not massively overpopulated and you really need to stop believing the gutter press that love to misinform and push anti-immigration buttons. Even quick Google research would show that much of the UK isn't even built upon. I fail to understand why some people blindly follow the illogical and untrue that can so very easily be disproved

@DeeCeeCherry what a stupid statement. There is a reason that places in the country are unbuilt on. Usually they form part of our food supply or are simply not suitable for development.

This country (and the planet as a whole) is grossly overpopulated and headed for environmental disaster.

I would be interested in knowing where the idea that Britain can onlyfeed 1/4 of its people is coming from. Afaik it’s round about half, erring on the larger side.

Hellequine’s story deserves to be better known too. “We’ve lost the area”, that’s worrying.

Why do we want to over populate our island? Surely the pandemic and history has taught us for health reasons it’s not good to have to many people living on top of each other?

@Pepperwort

Hellequine’s story deserves to be better known too. “We’ve lost the area”, that’s worrying.

Tbf police lost number of areas. Many to white drug dealing gangs...

There is a reason that places in the country are unbuilt on. Usually they form part of our food supply or are simply not suitable for development.

This is partly true, but I suspect much of these assumptions are based on the demand for resources, rather than need of these resources. For example we all know that we as a population treat food and water as an inexhaustible supply. Look at the wastage of both of these. Should we not be looking to cut back on our consumption, rather than using it as an argument for population control? A more holistic approach is needed IMO.

This country (and the planet as a whole) is grossly overpopulated and headed for environmental disaster

As above, it's consumption that is probably the bigger issue. I'm sure there are ways to live that involve respecting our environment, pinning the blame on simply population size is limiting the narrative.

@GeorgieTheGorgeousGoat

I have admit I don’t really understand why they do it. Understandable when they are true refugees, there are usually closer ‘safe’ places so I don’t understand the danger they risk trying to get here. Is it that appealing here?

It’s easy to work on the black market here. Our enforcement (of anything) is a shambles and we are mostly less racist Han many places in mainland europe. Amongst other pull factors.

We're in the top 16% for population density in the world. So yes, you can argue we are overpopulated because we're well above average. The only answer is fewer people, so birth rate needs to come down and stay down for an extended period (but that's not a popular opinion so nobody talks about it too much).

@DeeCeeCherry

It's not massively overpopulated and you really need to stop believing the gutter press that love to misinform and push anti-immigration buttons. Even quick Google research would show that much of the UK isn't even built upon. I fail to understand why some people blindly follow the illogical and untrue that can so very easily be disproved

Of course most of the UK isn’t “built on” if we build on it all we’re fucked. How much would be ok in your book? 50%? 90%?

@Keepithidden

There is a reason that places in the country are unbuilt on. Usually they form part of our food supply or are simply not suitable for development.

This is partly true, but I suspect much of these assumptions are based on the demand for resources, rather than need of these resources. For example we all know that we as a population treat food and water as an inexhaustible supply. Look at the wastage of both of these. Should we not be looking to cut back on our consumption, rather than using it as an argument for population control? A more holistic approach is needed IMO.

This country (and the planet as a whole) is grossly overpopulated and headed for environmental disaster

As above, it's consumption that is probably the bigger issue. I'm sure there are ways to live that involve respecting our environment, pinning the blame on simply population size is limiting the narrative.

I kind of agree, but consumption isn't the only problem with the population as is.

The main issue is inequality and education. There are vast swathes of the world who are uneducated, living lives a medieval serf wouldn't envy. Their lives as they are living them are not a thing of value. I'm not saying this to be a dick - I'm saying that they're suffering immensely in service of a global economy that prioritises consumption of the few over a sustainable life for fewer of the many. Nobody is treating those lives as if they are of value.

(a problem not limited to sweatshops - look at the rhetoric that is desperate to get us back buying Pret sandwiches and sweating on the Tube when people are happy working from home)

Given that the poor vastly outnumber the wealthy AND suffer the worst consequences of poor standards of living, it should be a slam-dunk to act for change.

But the poor and uneducated - where they have a say in the political agenda - are relatively easily set against each other than against the bigger systemic problems. Their only collective power is in consuming and making ethical choices, but being both poor and uneducated, it is harder to do those things AND survive.

I also slightly disagree that the planet should be treated as one vast factory for serving human needs. I think far lower, sustainable populations would be ideal (even migratory, to respond to climate changes beyond human influenced ones). It's possible theoretically, but the human race is largely one of wasted potential.

How people can say we are not overpopulated is beyond me! Have you ever been in Europe, Canada etc? Then you would see the difference! Much nicer to live in places like that!

Thecatsthecats - I agree completely, it is all so homogenously linked, and separating out individual elements is a nightmare because they impact on each other e.g. poor = less consumption = lower quality of life (although even that is subject to much debate itslef!).

I suppose what I'm trying to get at is that "not enough food, infrastructure, healthcare etc." as reasons for limiting population is too simplistic and it's so much more complicated than it first appears.