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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think, without upsetting anybody, we are massively overpopulated on this tiny Island??? What sensible non punitive solutions are there??

628 replies

PasstheBucket89 · 08/08/2020 21:29

Its pretty relevant with all the talk about migrant boats, priti patel saying she will make the passage unviable etc she has done some awful things, it makes my blood run cold tbh i doubt she cares about the safety of them in that boats. But, what di we do, and when suggestions are made its often motivated by hate not quality of life issues. And yes, the ageing massively adds to the overpopulation aswell, but what should we do? reasonably? this tiny Island is massively overpopulated, it doesn't benefit anyone to be crammed in like sardines like this, massively effects access to housing, healthcare, education etc, What should the gov do, not adding to the hostile environment??.

OP posts:
frumpety · 10/08/2020 19:18

@MistressMounthaven the dairy cattle that are mostly kept indoors.

I don't think that is true, at least not in the UK, all the ones locally only come in to be milked and then are in the fields for the majority of the time.

MistressMounthaven · 10/08/2020 20:01

Where I live in the west of Scotland recently farmers all seem to be building huge barns. The cattle are then kept in for much of the year. But as long as everyone wants cheap food they have to do what's most profitable I suppose. I am a meat eater but starting to have second thoughts.

DdraigGoch · 10/08/2020 20:13

@NiceGerbil

Erm I'm not sure that the problems with an ageing population will new helped much at all by other old people popping to the post office for them Grin
Loneliness is a serious problem. One of people's care needs is simple social contact.
DdraigGoch · 10/08/2020 20:18

@MistressMounthaven

Where I live in the west of Scotland recently farmers all seem to be building huge barns. The cattle are then kept in for much of the year. But as long as everyone wants cheap food they have to do what's most profitable I suppose. I am a meat eater but starting to have second thoughts.
Most milk is still produced on traditional farms. If we keep overpopulating though, factory farming will be ever more prevalent.
frumpety · 10/08/2020 20:29

Which is why 'grass fed beef' demands a premium in the States.

Stressing · 10/08/2020 22:36

I believe the ageing population thing is a ruse used by governments to cover up the mistakes of the last few years. After all, how did we cope with social care prior to the immigration revolution? As well as we do now, if not better is my guess.

No government ever expressed concern over a plateauing population nor voiced a requirement for mass immigration prior to the EUs open door policy. Now we have found ourselves at the tail end of an extreme, radical social experiment that we were powerless to stop we are all expected to show gratitude for foreign born workers who have all allegedly come to wipe our bottoms for us, come to save us, when we didn't even need saving. It's absolute BS.

There are enough people and there have always been enough people to look after the elderly it's just the social system is under resourced, poorly managed and undervalued. We have always used foreign workers for our care system but managed numbers and had a selective process. Same goes for all the other jobs, the toilets got cleaned, the taxis got driven and the fruit got picked. We simply did not need to add to our population with mass immigration.

Furthermore, immigrants need or will eventually need the same level of care/houses/resources as the native population anyway so the situation is just self perpetuating. That kind of blows the whole 'we need more carers and unskilled workers' ethos out of the water. As another poster put down thread, most modern day immigrants to UK are young men from patriarchal cultures, whether Asia or Eastern Europe and would not be suited to carers work anyway. It's all a cover up to avoid political culpability for the future damage our exploding population will have on our quality of life, our health,well-being and the UKs natural resources and environment.

woodhill · 10/08/2020 22:40

Also the care home owners want to pay the rubbish wages to carers and maximise profit.

Before there used to be nursing homes after hospital treatments and council run care homes existed.

Pepperwort · 10/08/2020 22:47

Stressing, actually the majority of care was done by women. Unpaid, unvalued. We could do better without immigration, probably, but it would need to provide decently paid jobs suitable for long-term life here. Then you hit the snag that the well-off do not want to pay for us plebs.

HellequineViriato · 11/08/2020 08:06

Read this with interest. I live in one of the areas that many of the people crossing the channel typically end up. In fact, there's a hotel around 15 mins walk from me which is currently booked for them. You do see them around, mainly groups of young men who typically hang out mostly with others from their home countries I would guess. They eventually will be found somewhere permanent to live typically also around here too.

So, what impacts does this have upon this area? I've lived here around 20 years and we were at that point an area of fairly high migration anyway and since that point I've seen definite increases and also communities come and go and spread out into surrounding areas. The first lots of EE have come and gone, moving into areas further out and we now have a massive influx of Romanian/Bulgarian typically Roma. We also have a very mixed African/ME/S Asian population too.

The main impact is community cohesion which even within the incoming groups is not straightforward and we now have gang conflicts within the area. We have had a number of issues of overcrowding as many of the houses are now HMOs legally or otherwise which has exacerbated issues with traffic and parking hugely, the sewage system is groaning under the strain and the local water company have to constantly jet the drains. We have a terrible problem with rats and flies. Noise is also unbearable and is constant (we cannot have windows open at night), you also have to be alert as there are constant fights and issues which may stem from people being in such close proximity to each other. I no longer visit the local shopping area as there has been a massive uptick in street attacks. We've had issues with grooming gangs too and cases of modern slavery. Drug dealing takes place openly and we've also had pop-up brothels as well. A local resident recently said in the paper "No one cares about this area any more - it has been abandoned".

So, where does that leave us? Well, my DH job will likely go early next year which leaves us having to likely sell the house so we'll go back to his home country and my world will shrink to a patch of land and a small house. I spend my time walking around the house working out what to leave, sell or take now. I will have regrets in that I will likely miss my elderly fathers last years and I will be even further from my sister than we are already. But despite what I will lose I will gain more in quality of life, the chance at a school and friends for DS and a real home where I can walk out of my door and feel relaxed.

I have to accept that where I live is someone else’s home now and I’m not part of that. For their better life I have to go. I won’t deny I’m looking forward to leaving, a few emotions about the house but not much else. I suppose at least we’re budging up and making room which will be important to many.

itsaratrap · 11/08/2020 09:39

HellequineViriato

Where is your DH from?

Alex50 · 11/08/2020 09:53

Do we really want millions of people coming to the UK? Look at India 800 million poor. The countries I see that are over populated, the general population aren’t doing better, their standard of living is terrible that’s why they want to come here. I think we’ve been sold we need mass immigration to keep the country going. I’m not against immigration but not huge numbers all wanting to live in the SE. Look at Mumbai nearly 20 million people, why would you want to live like that?

bambinaballerina · 11/08/2020 10:00

It sounds awful to say (and I'll probably get huge backlash for this) but many bypass other "safe countries" to come for our welfare system. I can see why, they can get good, safe housing, free healthcare and a job. In their counties they would have to work much harder for this and see the U.K. as the land of opportunity. I can't say I blame them but unfortunately the country it's already stretched for resources.

Oh yes, we all came here to scrounge benefits and steal your jobs Hmm

Parker231 · 11/08/2020 10:04

The government are now restricting people coming into the U.K. and have set a salary minimum for those who have a UK job. This will mean people can’t come into the UK to do care work and other minimum wage jobs. These will have to be now done by UK citizens who have mainly rejected these jobs.

itsaratrap · 11/08/2020 10:08

Parker231

“This will mean people can’t come into the UK to do care work and other minimum wage jobs. These will have to be now done by UK citizens who have mainly rejected these jobs.”

Yes, good luck with that care homes, fruit farms, hotel/hospital cleaning recruiters, etc.

itsaratrap · 11/08/2020 10:09

Interesting how many Brutish people are more than happy to have their car washed for a fiver or a set of acrylics stuck on for 15 quid by immigrants.

TheSoapyFrog · 11/08/2020 10:19

They're building in the wrong places so it seems like we're overpopulated and then no money is being invested in providing the extra services needed. I lived in the centre of the county town. Massive blocks of flats are being erected in any space they can find. The town is being used to house residents from London boroughs who can't find council housing where they are.
Hundreds of families are coming into the area but there are no more doctors surgeries or NHS dentists opening so it feels like it's massively overpopulated.
I moved to a village on the outskirts of town. Surrounded by open green spaces and it's quiet. I can walk from one end to the other and see maybe 5 other people.

Parker231 · 11/08/2020 10:25

There is a shortage of GP’s and dentists so everyone is going to have longer waits for services. DH is a GP but due to Brexit we’ve decided to leave the UK. There isn’t a GP to replace him.

woodhill · 11/08/2020 10:26

I can't wait to move to somewhere quieter.

woodhill · 11/08/2020 10:27

But yes you have to be mindful about things like doctors surgeries and dentists.

MistressMounthaven · 11/08/2020 11:21

@HellequineViriato
Interesting post. I think your post describes what many fear.
Young male immigrants surely means their parent, wives are left to get on with it.
The U.K existing population has fewer religious people these days, religion and beliefs are not so important. But some immigrants have fundamentalist and intolerant religious views - terrorists, homophobia and grooming are two things that may have stemmed from that. Thanks T Blair - the country needs that Hmm

CorianderLord · 11/08/2020 11:28

There are a tenth of the people in London in the entirety of Yorkshire... cities are crowded, the UK is not

Packingsoapandwater · 11/08/2020 11:49

Sorry, this is a long one in response to a comment further up the thread.

Kill off the House Of Lords. With over 800 members, it's basically an ego boost rather than a debating chamber. Replace it with a federal chamber with representatives from each corner of the UK.

If you do this, it is likely you will lose the last element of legislative scrutiny in this country. Such a plan as the above would politicise entrance to the HoL and it would end up like the HoC, where legislation has become a game of political football and hideously bad law makes it way through the lower chamber virtually unimpeded.

Move to a sensible system of voting. FPTP basically devalues everyone's vote in a "safe" seat and inflates it in a swing seat. On top of that, short money funding and winner-takes-all kills off the chance of any new parties getting a foothold. Yes, you can end up with some lunatics in the Commons but it also makes it likely to form a consensus.

I'm not so sure this is the solution you think it is. Wealthier parties will always have the upper hand, purely because they have more resources, and it would do nothing to correct the current problems vis a vis candidate selection.

There is also a danger it would politicise the HoC more than it is already, and you end up with horse trading between similar parties to get legislation passed. You may also find that certain parties gain huge numbers of votes based on "celebrity faces", rather than a solid network of viable candidates: see UKIP and previous Euro-elections.

Reform the housing system (especially leasehold) and get rid of right to buy. Allow councils and housing associations to build and keep properties again. This is important as shelter and adapted housing is in short supply and we have a lot of elderly people to keep safe and well. Decent housing and social systems can mean the difference between an extra decade of good health or repeated hospital admissions.

I am heavily involved in local government and local politics. This idea in theory sounds great; in practice, it's a disaster.

You would be talking about councils being responsible financially and legally for hundreds of homes and the land around them. The cost of running the relevant housing, maintenance and landscaping departments in labour alone would be significant (understatement of the decade there), and that's before you look at the cost of required machinery, goods, services and the various insurance requirements. This was part of the reason why councils got into so much debt in the 70s, and, as it fed into the PSBR back then, why Britain had to go to the IMF for a loan (which is still the largest loan ever given to a country).

A better solution would be ...

  1. to repurpose vacant units in town and city centres for housing (it would also keep town and city centres alive) -- though there is an extraordinary resistance to this, despite primary housing being a standard feature of most towns and cities in the 19th century when they grew to the size they were.

  2. for councils to build and sell at cost price under certain regulations and conditions. There's no reason why a council cannot sell a property under the regulation that the property must then be sold back to the council if the owners wish to move (such conditions were attached to the sale of certain council houses in my area in the 80s).

Of course, for this, the council has to be able to procure viable land at a reasonable price. And we are running out of that. Viable developments need to be on an infrastructure network (road, mains water/gas/sewage/electricity/telecommunications) and they need to be near places of work, schools, GP surgeries and amenities. If a plot of land does not have those features, you've got to put them in, and it's got to work organically, otherwise people leave.

Case in point: our borough council recently demolished yes, demolished an old council estate because no one wanted to live there as it was too far away from town. It had only been up for twenty years.

And don't get me started on Housing Associations. I'd say a third of my work involves banging my head against a wall with the local HA on behalf of vulnerable residents. It's pretty common for an HA to avoid maintenance tasks on a property until something goes really wrong.

In terms of social care, the solution is to build low to medium care housing developments with a resident porter, a small 24 hour nursing unit and an onsite dining hall where housing units can either be bought or rented.

Very few elderly people really need the kind of intense care provided by care/nursing homes (which are very expensive to run and councils cannot really cope with the liability either financially or structurally), but they do need some kind of supportive help. Providing that help in one location means you reduce the cost of care provided in-home across multiple locations, and you can extend coverage across the day.

Again, I think such units should not be council run and maintained, because what then happens is that shortfalls in budgets then affect the service, which itself becomes a political football. It is far better to encourage non-profit entities, such a social enterprise organisations, to build and run these kind of facilities.

Reform tax laws. It's going to happen at some point as the health and pension bull rises.

I'd agree with this, but we also need politicians and civil servants who are committed to eradicating waste. You would not believe the amount of money that is spent on bollocks at a local level, even in a funding crisis; I dread to think how bad it might be at national.

MistressMounthaven · 11/08/2020 12:00

I think our blame culture has a lot to answer for- who at a senior level would put their head above the parapet eg to propose cuts to 'eradicate waste' when they are then blamed for any remotely connected problem that appears.
Teaching critical thinking, stats and philosophy at school might help us stop being so influenced by the latest headlines all the time.

Pepperwort · 11/08/2020 12:28

@HellequineViriato that is an awful story. Only the worst of Britain’s inner cities used to be like this: now it seems to be everywhere. Without wanting to diminish your difficulties in any way - I’ve lived in easier places and they were bad enough for me - at least you can move.

Where the fuck are our “free press” reporting on these issues?? It’s not only our political classes who have questions to answer.

BiBabbles · 11/08/2020 12:54

Avoiding the detention centres is easy, immigrate legally like I did and every other responsible immigrant

It would be nice to think that, but with the Windrush scandal - which has meant that people who migrated here legally as children decades ago have ended up in detention centres and some even deported - has shown the horrific issues with decades of retroactively applied changes to immigration law. Even some with indefinite leave to remain and did everything right lost their jobs and ability to work & access services when Biometric Residency Permits became required, the most vulnerable struggled with the new costs (ever increasing with the new 'government partners) and required paperwork (proving continuous residency, especially for unpaid family carers, can be very difficult).

I know the media has spouted that the new point system will be fair, but I can't see how it will make much difference compared to the multi-tier system the UK currently has and it will make no difference to asylum seekers - they won't be part of that system on entry anyways. Like I said before, lumping every arrival together makes no sense, there are different entry points in the system.

If concerned about overpopulation, and don't think better infrastructure, better working conditions so not as reliant on immigrant labour, or better information out there would solve it, then you have to consider who you want to stay away and, more importantly if you want to decrease the population anytime in the near future, who you want to leave to give the rest more space. There have been some moves to pay migrants to leave (this has also come up in the Windrush scandal). Who would you pay to leave? Which jobs should no longer be allowed to use immigrant labour (and at what point in the immigration process should a migrant be allowed to have those jobs), which subjects should international students no longer be allowed to study here, which family members - do you want to make it even more difficult for Brits who marry non-Brits to settle, even if the non-Brit provides elder care for British family members? If you want it to be non-punitive, it will then probably result in bribery. If we include punitive, then maybe reduce the 'we can deport you if you commit a crime that results in a 1 year+ conviction' to get more people to leave? Though then you do have worry about issues in the justice system giving certain groups higher jail time.

We're going to have to deal with the population bulge at some point, and - if people want to reduce migration - a transition period to deal with that too. How both will be dealt with is probably a clusterfuck.