AIBU to think WFH will create new 'class' divide?

[Sallygoround631]

I've been thinking about this. Have done it myself for 15 years so the concept isn't new to me, but I am self employed, (paid per project not per hour) which is the only experience I have of it. I'm not wealthy.

Been reading a few articles/forums discussing this and I wondered if a future of WFH would create some level of resentment or division between those who do it and those who can't.

Those who 'can't' being many minimum wage jobs, etc.

I've seen people happily reporting have many more free hours per day to spend with family, breakfast in sunshine, etc. Whilst I think this is a positive thing in itself, I imagine those who will never have a hope in hell to WFH might feel depressed when comparing their situation? Is this more class based than many would admit?

(I'd prefer this did not morph into a willy waving post about how lucky and well off of you/me/we are)

@Sarah510

I think the other thing is, that if more of us can wfh, we can move further out, thus hopefully freeing up living space for those who do need to be present at work, so they too can have a better quality of life - thinking of for example docs and nurses being able to afford houses near the hospital. I think the world is changing. If our cities could become less congested, and if house prices could come down so that people who actually need to be IN work could live near to it, I think it would make a massive difference. For me the commute has been the bane of my life for many years. All those winter evenings when the trains are cancelled, delayed, trying to make your way in lashing rain and cold, or heat. It takes a massive stress out of your life if you can walk or cycle to work and hopefully this will be the future and we will look back at our lives and wonder how we did all the commuting. I used to do 3.5 hours a day. I'm down to 2.5 hours now, on a good day. It's so draining.

Definitely this! I am a nurse and quite enjoying the quiet roads. Everyone that can wfh should, in my opinion. It's better for the environment.It's ridiculous that people should have to commute to an office everyday to do the things that they can do from home. I'm hoping my dh sees the light and moves with the times, so we can get a rescue whippet, so there's a bit of an ulterior motive in my thinking

I’m Wfh just now and I hate it. I miss chatting with my colleagues, the change of scene, being in a different part of my city. I have a toddler so going out to work was always my time to myself- to wear nice clothes, read on the bus, go to to the gym at lunchtime. A real boost to to my mental health and a source of connection with the outside world. I can’t wait until this is over.

How do you wfh long term or forever if you haven’t got a space for work, surely working on the dining room table is not sustainable long term especially if you have a family as you would have to clear away your desk all the while. DH works in the spare room and even that is a PITA as I keep hearing his Teams calls through the door. DS has to work on the kitchen table in his shared flat, fortunately he is going back to the office soon.

Agree, but the people I know who are WFH are working 13-15 hours a day not getting more family/personal/hobby time.

@Ariela

Those of us who were not furloughed and had to work whether from home or expecially not from home, are definitely slightly resentful of the class of people who post about the wonderful time they've been having on FB. And it is particularly galling when you've had to work but are not considered front line or essential, to be crowded in the queue for the pub takeaway by the lady 'I only actually work in admin not the front line, and I've not even had to go into the office more than 1 or 2 days a week but the 25% NHS discount this pub gives is wonderful we have been buying pub takeaways at least 3 times a week. ' I let her go first.

Speak for yourself please. Plenty of us have worked throughout and aren’t “essential” or “frontline” workers yet don’t resent those who were furloughed just because they got to do some diy or spend time with their dc. In fact I’ve really only seen this attitude on MN.

In RL most people seem to realise that the aim of furlough schemes were to buy time rather than have hundreds of thousands defaulting on mortgages and loans, businesses going bust and the economy going over a cliff. Who really gives a shit that Susan down the road got a discount on her takeaway ?

@WhentheDealGoesDown

How do you wfh long term or forever if you haven’t got a space for work, surely working on the dining room table is not sustainable long term especially if you have a family as you would have to clear away your desk all the while. DH works in the spare room and even that is a PITA as I keep hearing his Teams calls through the door. DS has to work on the kitchen table in his shared flat, fortunately he is going back to the office soon.

Isn’t that the point of the post? People who can (because their employer allows them and they have enough space and money to do so comfortably at home), and people who don’t.

I tried WFH at the start of lockdown - it lasted 2 days, mainly down to the appalling internet connectivity where I live. But I hated it and was glad to get back into the office. I appreciated the structure going into work gave my day and there was one colleague who also could not WFH so I had at least some company.

My role is professional, relational and fairly complex and the rest of the staff working remotely made the simplest task much more difficult and time-consuming. We all went back in last week and it was great! I'm midway on the extraversion/introversion scale but I really missed my colleagues and I have found the endless scheduled phone calls/Zooms/Skype meetings exhausting. The effectiveness of IT-facilitated communications versus face-to-face interaction is dire.

Our brains are not meant to work like that, I'm sure.

And the kids thing won't be an issue in the future. Obviously it's been difficult whilst schools and childcare have been closed, but those wfh from now on will still be expected to arrange childcare during the working day.
It's a big shift for a lot of people that have been used to going into an office, but younger people will obviously choose their career based on the reality of what suits them.

@WhentheDealGoesDown

More likely lower paid jobs wfh, lots of admin staff and call centres do, it's really mainly between office jobs and non office jobs rather than class.

Nah, loads of people on six figures WFH...sometimes with admin staff who are in the office doing their paperwork and keeping the office building going.

Nah, loads of people on six figures WFH...sometimes with admin staff who are in the office doing their paperwork and keeping the office building going.

That's my experience!

I enjoyed wfh, but also worry, that if I’m not seen I can be made redundant by off shoring my job to cheap labour countries. I have requested to go back To work FT in October

I've noticed comments on MN about self employed people not paying their taxes, people working from home taking the piss and being lazy etc.

I think that some people will look at flexible working as somehow lesser and lazy. But I don't think it's class related, more mindset?

I can understand that to those used to working in traditional ways, these new ways of working, the gig economy and everything online must seem very alien.

Your local green grocer taking on an extra part timer as they have had an upturn in business is not going to put a dent in the sheer number of job losses and at risk jobs.
From the press Association
August 4: Dixons Carphone - 800
August 4: Pizza Express - 1,100 at risk
August 3: Hays Travel - up to 878
August 3: DW Sports - 1,700 at risk
July 31: Byron - 651
July 30: Pendragon - 1,800
July 29: Waterstones - unknown number of head office roles
July 28: Selfridges - 450
July 27: Oak Furnitureland - 163 at risk
July 23: Dyson - 600 in UK, 300 overseas
July 22: Mears - fewer than 200
July 20: Marks & Spencer - 950 at risk
July 17: Azzurri Group (owns Zizzi and Ask Italian) - up to 1,200
July 16: Genting - 1,642 at risk
July 16: Burberry - 150 in UK, 350 overseas
July 15: Banks Mining - 250 at risk
July 15: Buzz Bingo - 573 at risk
July 14: Vertu - 345
July 14: DFS - up to 200 at risk
July 9: General Electric - 369
July 9: Eurostar - unknown number
July 9: Boots - 4,000
July 9: John Lewis - 1,300 at risk
July 9: Burger King - 1,600 at risk
July 7: Reach (owns Daily Mirror and Daily Express newspapers) - 550
July 6: Pret a Manger - 1,000 at risk
July 2: Casual Dining Group (owns Bella Italia and Cafe Rouge) - 1,909
July 1: SSP (owns Upper Crust) - 5,000 at risk
July 1: Arcadia (owns TopShop) - 500
July 1: Harrods - 700
July 1: Virgin Money - 300
June 30: Airbus - 1,700
June 30: TM Lewin - 600
June 30: Smiths Group - "some job losses"
June 25: Royal Mail - 2,000
June 24: Jet2 - 102
June 24: Swissport - 4,556
June 24: Crest Nicholson - 130
June 23: Shoe Zone - unknown number of jobs in head office
June 19: Aer Lingus - 500
June 17: HSBC - unknown number of jobs in UK, 35,000 worldwide
June 15: Jaguar Land Rover - 1,100
June 15: Travis Perkins - 2,500
June 12: Le Pain Quotidien - 200
June 11: Heathrow - at least 500
June 11: Bombardier - 600
June 11: Johnson Matthey - 2,500
June 11: Centrica - 5,000
June 10: Quiz - 93
June 10: The Restaurant Group (owns Frankie and Benny's) - 3,000
June 10: Monsoon Accessorise - 545
June 10: Everest Windows - 188
June 8: BP - 10,000 worldwide
June 8: Mulberry - 375
June 5: Victoria's Secret - 800 at risk
June 5: Bentley - 1,000
June 4: Aston Martin - 500
June 4: Lookers - 1,500
May 29: Belfast International Airport - 45
May 28: Debenhams (in second announcement) - "hundreds" of jobs
May 28: EasyJet - 4,500 worldwide
May 26: McLaren - 1,200
May 22: Carluccio's - 1,000
May 21: Clarks - 900
May 20: Rolls-Royce - 9,000
May 20: Bovis Homes - unknown number
May 19: Ovo Energy - 2,600
May 19: Antler - 164
May 15: JCB - 950 at risk
May 13: Tui - 8,000 worldwide
May 12: Carnival UK (owns P&O Cruises and Cunard) - 450
May 11: P&O Ferries - 1,100 worldwide
May 5: Virgin Atlantic - 3,150
May 1: Ryanair - 3,000 worldwide
April 30: Oasis Warehouse - 1,800
April 29: WPP - unknown number
April 28: British Airways - up to 12,000
April 23: Safran Seats - 400
April 23: Meggitt - 1,800 worldwide
April 21: Cath Kidston - 900
April 17: Debenhams - 422
March 31: Laura Ashley - 268
March 30: BrightHouse - 2,400 at risk
March 27: Chiquito - 1,500 at risk.

So whilst it is great a few local business have increased footfall relying on them to make up the jobs needed would be the equivalent of trying to bale out your sinking boat with an egg cup.

Sorry When the Deal Goes Down. Replied to two random posts and they happened to both be yours? Didn’t mean to only respond to you

So whilst it is great a few local business have increased footfall relying on them to make up the jobs needed would be the equivalent of trying to bale out your sinking boat with an egg cup.

Yep, the change has been too swift & vast.

I do actually know what you mean and agree to a certain extent. Obviously there will be well paid professions where one can’t WFH (medical etc) but the vast majority of well paid corporate roles can be done from home.

I actually think rather than a divide between types of jobs, it’s dangerous to assume that everyone has a great work space at home - a purpose built office or a spare room. It isn’t a comfortable experience for some people - I know some at my company spent months working on the sofa with a laptop, not the most ergonomic!

But I do know what you mean - the suggestion that it’s the ‘future’ and everyone will have these great working lives where we are able to be well paid whilst also getting to the school run, lots of time with family etc is just not realistic for a lot of lower paid jobs I.e retail, hospitality.

I read your post expecting you to say the opposite OP. I've wfh for years and in my job it feels like being a bit of an underclass, in that I'm freelance, I've got no job security, work pension, sick pay, etc. I'm not well paid and I sometimes work more hours than I'm paid for just to get work done, don't always get breaks, etc. It's also hard to have a clear divide between work and home, so I've got kids needing supervision, I'm making stuff for dinner in my break time, etc & my family forget I'm at work because I'm also there. I know from talking to colleagues that this isn't unusual for home workers.

I'm lucky I have an office area but, as others have said, plenty work on their bed or at the kitchen table with a normal chair, none of the health and safety checks you might get for your desk at work, so maybe there will be an increase in back problems, RSI, etc at some point, and what rights will people have if this causes longterm injuries?

OTOH hopefully more people working from home, and particularly employees rather than freelancers, might mean an increase in status and a better understanding from other family members. I did have a job years ago where they ran a wfh trial and there was serious resentment from many who weren't picked to take part, so I guess I should have see the other side too, that some people might see it as a more desirable option, though a friend I spoke to yesterday was saying how much of a relief it was to work in her old office for the first time in ages and see other people in person and see a different environment - it could work both ways.

I also heard or read somewhere in the last couple of weeks that London Zones 1-2 rents have plummeted, and it's mainly from people moving out of shared houses to pay the same for more space in suburbs/nearby towns to make working from home more pleasant and not be stuck in a bedroom. I wonder how those people will feel if they're asked to go back to their old workplaces?

In my idea world (COVID aside) I think I'd like a mix - I like the flexibility of wfh, but I also like seeing real colleagues face to face sometimes, and I would really like the security of being an employee and having a well-designed workspace.

Well obviously @Proudboomer but I don’t think those of us giving those examples were suggesting any such thing, we’re we? Rather we were responding to posters concerns that wfh meant people would no longer be buying coffee/lunch on the go.

The job losses you’ve listed are a combination of Covid and Brexit by and large and not really anything to do with the thread topic.

@WhentheDealGoesDown

How do you wfh long term or forever if you haven’t got a space for work, surely working on the dining room table is not sustainable long term especially if you have a family as you would have to clear away your desk all the while. DH works in the spare room and even that is a PITA as I keep hearing his Teams calls through the door. DS has to work on the kitchen table in his shared flat, fortunately he is going back to the office soon.

My friend is working on her bed! Kids down stairs trashing the house as no kids clubs in her area open

@gogorogo

Some surgeons can do paperwork from home Im sure & I thought robot surgery was the future.

Presumably you know that robots don't magically carry out operations autonomously! It requires a lot of expertise from a human to make a robot perform the operation. The benefit is that they don't tire after a 10 hour stint at the operating table nor do they need to stop to eat, drink and go to the toilet, but they still need the human intellect to supervise and ensure things stay on track.

I'm lucky I have an office area but, as others have said, plenty work on their bed or at the kitchen table with a normal chair, none of the health and safety checks you might get for your desk at work, so maybe there will be an increase in back problems, RSI, etc at some point, and what rights will people have if this causes longterm injuries?

It's a very good point about longer term muscular-skeletal damage caused from people spending hours hunched up on beds with a laptop with a tiny screen and keyboard.

I would advise anyone forced to wfh, to formalise a request to their employer asap for a proper supportive chair and screen as a minimum. If possible a computer table. Either the employer will be responsible and respond supportively, or the employee could have a claim against them should they suffer from back, neck or RSI injuries later in their employment,

If you don't cover yourself now, it will be extremely difficult to claim later. If you highlight that you're being responsible about your health, it will give them less wriggle room.

I used to wfh part of the week in more normal times. I have been full time wfh since mid-March, November being talked about as going back - if we want to. They are happy for us to work flexibly if we want to. They have always been of the view that as long as the job gets done they don't care when you do it, it's about outputs and results. I much prefer it, as does my DH.

We have a spare room as an office, and a dining room table. We take it in turns in the office. Has worked well, and we get on better than when we were working long dates with commute. We are in a flat, not ideal, and with no outside space, so we have to make a concerted effort to build in outdoor exercise time.

We have wanted to move further away from London. This gives people the opportunity to move outside hubs. It's a win win. It frees up congestion on roads and on packed trains for those who are unable/don't want to wfh. Local High Streets may get a revival.

Wfh does not suit some, some of my colleagues are champing at the bit to be office bound again. It is also isolating for new people, some people who live on their own, the younger sociable types.

Maybe the savings on commute will end up being spent on individual rent a chair/office space. Which comes back to the original point of class divide

So whilst it is great a few local business have increased footfall relying on them to make up the jobs needed would be the equivalent of trying to bale out your sinking boat with an egg cup

Most of the job losses you mentioned in your list have zero to do with people working from home, though.

As for RSI etc I am far more comfortable on a dining chair at home, than I am on office chairs. After a few hours in the office my back is screaming at me.