AIBU to think WFH will create new 'class' divide?

[Sallygoround631]

I've been thinking about this. Have done it myself for 15 years so the concept isn't new to me, but I am self employed, (paid per project not per hour) which is the only experience I have of it. I'm not wealthy.

Been reading a few articles/forums discussing this and I wondered if a future of WFH would create some level of resentment or division between those who do it and those who can't.

Those who 'can't' being many minimum wage jobs, etc.

I've seen people happily reporting have many more free hours per day to spend with family, breakfast in sunshine, etc. Whilst I think this is a positive thing in itself, I imagine those who will never have a hope in hell to WFH might feel depressed when comparing their situation? Is this more class based than many would admit?

(I'd prefer this did not morph into a willy waving post about how lucky and well off of you/me/we are)

@Proudboomer

Your local green grocer taking on an extra part timer as they have had an upturn in business is not going to put a dent in the sheer number of job losses and at risk jobs. From the press Association August 4: Dixons Carphone - 800 August 4: Pizza Express - 1,100 at risk August 3: Hays Travel - up to 878 August 3: DW Sports - 1,700 at risk July 31: Byron - 651 July 30: Pendragon - 1,800 July 29: Waterstones - unknown number of head office roles July 28: Selfridges - 450 July 27: Oak Furnitureland - 163 at risk July 23: Dyson - 600 in UK, 300 overseas July 22: Mears - fewer than 200 July 20: Marks & Spencer - 950 at risk July 17: Azzurri Group (owns Zizzi and Ask Italian) - up to 1,200 July 16: Genting - 1,642 at risk July 16: Burberry - 150 in UK, 350 overseas July 15: Banks Mining - 250 at risk July 15: Buzz Bingo - 573 at risk July 14: Vertu - 345 July 14: DFS - up to 200 at risk July 9: General Electric - 369 July 9: Eurostar - unknown number July 9: Boots - 4,000 July 9: John Lewis - 1,300 at risk July 9: Burger King - 1,600 at risk July 7: Reach (owns Daily Mirror and Daily Express newspapers) - 550 July 6: Pret a Manger - 1,000 at risk July 2: Casual Dining Group (owns Bella Italia and Cafe Rouge) - 1,909 July 1: SSP (owns Upper Crust) - 5,000 at risk July 1: Arcadia (owns TopShop) - 500 July 1: Harrods - 700 July 1: Virgin Money - 300 June 30: Airbus - 1,700 June 30: TM Lewin - 600 June 30: Smiths Group - "some job losses" June 25: Royal Mail - 2,000 June 24: Jet2 - 102 June 24: Swissport - 4,556 June 24: Crest Nicholson - 130 June 23: Shoe Zone - unknown number of jobs in head office June 19: Aer Lingus - 500 June 17: HSBC - unknown number of jobs in UK, 35,000 worldwide June 15: Jaguar Land Rover - 1,100 June 15: Travis Perkins - 2,500 June 12: Le Pain Quotidien - 200 June 11: Heathrow - at least 500 June 11: Bombardier - 600 June 11: Johnson Matthey - 2,500 June 11: Centrica - 5,000 June 10: Quiz - 93 June 10: The Restaurant Group (owns Frankie and Benny's) - 3,000 June 10: Monsoon Accessorise - 545 June 10: Everest Windows - 188 June 8: BP - 10,000 worldwide June 8: Mulberry - 375 June 5: Victoria's Secret - 800 at risk June 5: Bentley - 1,000 June 4: Aston Martin - 500 June 4: Lookers - 1,500 May 29: Belfast International Airport - 45 May 28: Debenhams (in second announcement) - "hundreds" of jobs May 28: EasyJet - 4,500 worldwide May 26: McLaren - 1,200 May 22: Carluccio's - 1,000 May 21: Clarks - 900 May 20: Rolls-Royce - 9,000 May 20: Bovis Homes - unknown number May 19: Ovo Energy - 2,600 May 19: Antler - 164 May 15: JCB - 950 at risk May 13: Tui - 8,000 worldwide May 12: Carnival UK (owns P&O Cruises and Cunard) - 450 May 11: P&O Ferries - 1,100 worldwide May 5: Virgin Atlantic - 3,150 May 1: Ryanair - 3,000 worldwide April 30: Oasis Warehouse - 1,800 April 29: WPP - unknown number April 28: British Airways - up to 12,000 April 23: Safran Seats - 400 April 23: Meggitt - 1,800 worldwide April 21: Cath Kidston - 900 April 17: Debenhams - 422 March 31: Laura Ashley - 268 March 30: BrightHouse - 2,400 at risk March 27: Chiquito - 1,500 at risk.

So whilst it is great a few local business have increased footfall relying on them to make up the jobs needed would be the equivalent of trying to bale out your sinking boat with an egg cup.

Jesus that’s bad

WFH is shite and I can’t wait to get back. Does everyone who enjoys it have an office? I am not sure how sitting at a kitchen table with kids who haven’t been to school for 5 months can be enjoyable?

@Slinkymalinky1

Maybe the savings on commute will end up being spent on individual rent a chair/office space. Which comes back to the original point of class divide

absolutely!!

@daisychain01

Presumably you know that robots don't magically carry out operations autonomously! It requires a lot of expertise from a human to make a robot perform the operation.

Where did I state otherwise?

Presumably you know that surgeons can use robots to perform surgery remotely?

What point are you trying to make?

I think you are spot on sallygoround631

People in less diverse ares may not be noticing this but I am with you.

I am White middle class civil servant. I couldn't be MORE comfortable in Covid. Full pay. No commute. London Weighting but live rurally and travel in.
I will be WFH until AT LEAST January and possibly for ever more. (Saving £569 on commute)... As well as staying safe in any upcoming 2nd wave..

Compare that to someone in a NMC job who still has to pay to get to work - no matter how far it's still a cost.. possibly to health as well as wealth .

Add to that the cost of childcare. Luckily mine are beyond that but compare a WFH who can pop out, pick up kids and stick in front of TV until you have finished work. Rather than pay after school or childminder...

Yes there ARE well paid jobs that require your presence - but you probable aren't struggling to pay the childminder every month..

WFH IS a middle class privilege that will make us richer whilst others struggle .

Yes. Definitely

WFH is shite and I can’t wait to get back. Does everyone who enjoys it have an office?

One spare bedroom converted to an office and another spare bedroom with just a desk put in. Both DP and I are WFH. We don’t have children either so WFH has been a doddle really. Breakfasts in the garden, lunch time walks, no commute or stress. I know not everyone is in this situation though

@daisychain01

I'm lucky I have an office area but, as others have said, plenty work on their bed or at the kitchen table with a normal chair, none of the health and safety checks you might get for your desk at work, so maybe there will be an increase in back problems, RSI, etc at some point, and what rights will people have if this causes longterm injuries?

It's a very good point about longer term muscular-skeletal damage caused from people spending hours hunched up on beds with a laptop with a tiny screen and keyboard.

I would advise anyone forced to wfh, to formalise a request to their employer asap for a proper supportive chair and screen as a minimum. If possible a computer table. Either the employer will be responsible and respond supportively, or the employee could have a claim against them should they suffer from back, neck or RSI injuries later in their employment,

If you don't cover yourself now, it will be extremely difficult to claim later. If you highlight that you're being responsible about your health, it will give them less wriggle room.

Actually, the employer is more likely to tell them to go back into the office if they can’t hack it.

I get much more family time. It's not possible to physically work all the time even when you're in the office. I get nearly all of my household chores done during the week in the working day. My weekend is my own. Unlike when I worked in an office ft. Same chores but had to be done after long commute or at weekends, I was so so tired back then. My young dc say hello to me around playing with toys tv and when at virtual school during lockdown I was there, not worrying about childcare if I had to return while schools were still off.

Saying that I suppose like any jobs not everyone has the same situation. I currently have a fixed work phone on my windowsill and i shut my laptop after work. My work place is my kitchen table, the hardest thing I encountered in lockdown was internet being shared with Disney + that channel drains our internet!!
I've bought out of my own money (but very cheaply from eBay) a laptop holder to make sure it's at the correct height, a keyboard and mouse. I know I prefer wfh as I've done it for 1.5 years now and should probably be on at least double what I earn but I don't miss the mundane chat about what Brenda has for tea vs watching my dc grow up.

I would advise anyone forced to wfh, to formalise a request to their employer asap for a proper supportive chair and screen as a minimum. If possible a computer table.

Yes, in principle, but that also necessitates having the space for them & not everyone does. Especially lodgers / flat sharers who are stuck working from their bedrooms.

but I don't miss the mundane chat about what Brenda has for tea vs watching my dc grow up. Does Brenda actually exist or have you deliberately picked a name of what would be an older person. This is happening more and more on here...

I love going to work. Enjoy the banter and friendships I’ve made there. It’s a beautiful space to be in

I could opt to work at home all day quietly working away and sometimes I do. However I get a lot out of working at work.

Actually, the employer is more likely to tell them to go back into the office if they can’t hack it.

Yes, that's my point, if that's their reaction to the adversity caused by lockdown then the employee needs to cover themselves, because RSI and back pain are miserable, and a crap employer who doesn't take their responsibilities for employee health and safety carefully enough need to be dragged kicking and screaming if necessary.

I think it will benefit "lower" classes too.

A lot of jobs will be out of reach to many people because they cannot afford to set up in the city.

Think about a graduate going for an entry job in London. Their salary will be sucked up by living costs. If you don't have a family capable of supporting you financially at the beginning, how are you supposed to afford your first deposit, travel costs, food, etc. before even getting your first pay check.

But you need work experience to finally reach those higher salaries.

Working from home and occasionally visiting the office would help a lot of people get a foot in the door.

@EmpressJKRowlingSpartacus

I would advise anyone forced to wfh, to formalise a request to their employer asap for a proper supportive chair and screen as a minimum. If possible a computer table.

Yes, in principle, but that also necessitates having the space for them & not everyone does. Especially lodgers / flat sharers who are stuck working from their bedrooms.

Very true, and coronavirus lockdown has shone a massive spotlight on the issues of home working where an assumption was made that everyone can accommodate an office in a tiny bed sit. I don't minimise that, but it's important if people can fit even a compact desk and proper supportive chair into their spare room or whatever that they try to do that rather than set themselves up for longer term health issues. It does need some extra effort but is worth it.

[quote meltedintheheat]@daisychain01

Presumably you know that robots don't magically carry out operations autonomously! It requires a lot of expertise from a human to make a robot perform the operation.

Where did I state otherwise?

Presumably you know that surgeons can use robots to perform surgery remotely?

What point are you trying to make? [/quote]
I think the point is that robotic surgery is all about accuracy, fewer mistakes and better outcomes rather than using fewer, less experienced staff.

@CatbearAmo

I think it will benefit "lower" classes too.

A lot of jobs will be out of reach to many people because they cannot afford to set up in the city.

Think about a graduate going for an entry job in London. Their salary will be sucked up by living costs. If you don't have a family capable of supporting you financially at the beginning, how are you supposed to afford your first deposit, travel costs, food, etc. before even getting your first pay check.

But you need work experience to finally reach those higher salaries.

Working from home and occasionally visiting the office would help a lot of people get a foot in the door.

Exactly this. Is opens up opportunities for more people to get better jobs in the larger firms. Until fairly recently, big organisations had regional/local offices but they've tended to close them and move everything into London or other big cities meaning people in the regions have badly suffered. If WFH opens that up again, then it massively improves the prospects of people living outside a few big cities. Must be a good thing.

Our son was looking at Northern Unis, ie Leeds, Newcastle and Durham - he wants to do the year in industry - all the unis said most students have to go to London for it and very few find placements close to their uni city. We hadn't realised how bad London Centricity had become until we discovered that.

London Weighting but live rurally and travel in.

But for WFH, the London weighting will eventually be withdrawn, maybe not for existing staff due to union pressure, but I can't see employers paying a London weighting for new recruits WFH.

So whilst it is great a few local business have increased footfall relying on them to make up the jobs needed would be the equivalent of trying to bale out your sinking boat with an egg cup.

But if most small independent shops in most towns and villages took on another worker, the total would be huge, hundreds of thousands.

According to the FSB, SME's already account for three fifths of the employment and around half of turnover in the UK private sector.

@user1497207191 my point was that robotic surgery is touted as the future & allows surgeons to work remotely. Who mentioned fewer, less experienced staff?

@WhentheDealGoesDown what an odd comment. Age never even came to mind! Where I live it's a common name so I used a common name?

But if most small independent shops in most towns and villages took on another worker, the total would be huge, hundreds of thousands.

Do most people that wfh all go out and shop locally in their lunchtime, DH wfh and I am retired and we just get our lunch from what we bought in our Tesco grocery shop, we may order something online but are unlikely to go rushing down to the local shops at lunchtime. DH sits and watches Bargain Hunt on his lunch break, I don't think he would want to be going to the shops or takeaways.

This gives people the opportunity to move outside hubs. It's a win win. It frees up congestion on roads and on packed trains for those who are unable/don't want to wfh. Local High Streets may get a revival.

I had to go to central London for a rare f2f work thing last week. Most of the ‘support’ businesses in the area were still shut - sandwich shops, hairdressers, all the little shops & cafes thousands of people visit before/after work and lunchtimes. In the longer term a revival of those kind of services in suburban high streets might replace central London services in the economy, or there may be opportunities for new services we haven’t yet imagined wfh workers might want. But that’s a long term structural change, with a lot of economic damage and individual hardship preceding it as thousands of businesses crash.

I actually agree with some of the points. It could be a better life for many, but less busy trains will eventually mean less frequent trains, quieter city centres might mean the loss off all kinds of hub services like arts/theatres/museums, specialist hospitals, maintaining heritage buildings, parks, etc. I think we have to be careful about what we might be sacrificing in diving into rapid suburbanisation. I don’t just mean London here - the same could be true of any city if large numbers of jobs move out of offices into homes.

The thing is, the 9-5 office with commute has not kept pace with technological advances - until now, when it was forced. The 9-5 is a decades old concept that now looks completely outmoded now. The enforced change has brought about seismic change which would have probably taken another few decades to achieve.

Mental health is a big issue now in society and in workplaces. Getting up at daft o'clock to put your child in Breakfast Club, rushing for a train, facing a long, expensive unreliable commute, stressed when you get there. Repeat on way home, then minimal interaction with kids, collapse for an hour, bed - then repeat. At the moment with homeschooling the full benefits of wfh are not being felt. For parents in that scenario from a stress point of view, and financially too, it has got to be better for stress levels. I don't have kids, I know how chilled I am now I no longer commute.

I feel sorry for the businesses who are reliant on office trade in city centres. Unfortunately they will have to adapt too. Most businesses near where I work are chains, particularly coffee and sandwich chains, who have squeezed out the independents. I don't feel too sad at their demise, although I feel for the staff. I don't feel it is my responsibility to buoy up the economy by spending in Pret. We don't have much of an economic model if we are relying on consumer spending.

Flexible working has been increasing over the years, and a lot of people cite flexibility more than pay. This has broadened that out. So, going forward, many people will look at this as a positive. Not everybody, it doesn't suit all.

I agree with all of that Teal99, except I am pessimistic about whether the new ways of working will be designed to make life better for workers. That seems logical, but it isn’t what’s happened over recent years. Ithink more likely that employers will just seek benefits for themselves from lower office expenses, more flexibility etc, but maybe at the expense of staff health & wellbeing (in all areas I mentioned in a previous post). I hope I’m wrong and we end up with a saner lifestyle for many more people.