AIBU to think WFH will create new 'class' divide?

[Sallygoround631]

I've been thinking about this. Have done it myself for 15 years so the concept isn't new to me, but I am self employed, (paid per project not per hour) which is the only experience I have of it. I'm not wealthy.

Been reading a few articles/forums discussing this and I wondered if a future of WFH would create some level of resentment or division between those who do it and those who can't.

Those who 'can't' being many minimum wage jobs, etc.

I've seen people happily reporting have many more free hours per day to spend with family, breakfast in sunshine, etc. Whilst I think this is a positive thing in itself, I imagine those who will never have a hope in hell to WFH might feel depressed when comparing their situation? Is this more class based than many would admit?

(I'd prefer this did not morph into a willy waving post about how lucky and well off of you/me/we are)

What you all have to remember is that if you can sit home and work, why wouldn’t your boss farm out your jobs to other countries.
Very true for many office roles. Not so much for highly specialized roles (my field doesn’t exist at all in china, and is in its infancy in india. Plus there are about 50 people worldwide doing my type of work because it is a highly stressful area to work in ).
But yes, either be highly specialized and flexible at the same time, or location bound, otherwise things are looking dim

Working from home isn't the grail some people think it is after experiencing it during lockdown. It's great for a few months, and it definitely has its perks. But it's so lonely and boring. No one to motivate you, no one to sound ideas off, no one to give you a pat on the back if you've done well, no one to share silly stories or make you laugh or ask you questions or make you a cup of coffee when you are flat out. Just you and your own drive to get things done. Some days you barely leave the house. If you are busy it's incredibly hard to justify taking time out to exercise. You don't get that buffer zone of the commute between work and home life so they encroach on each other.

@GrumpyHoonMain I’m not in England, and here none of those I’ve mentioned has worked from home during corona. Many of those working in offices here have been made redundant, but others (some lower paid ones) are more in demand than ever. But yes, I’m sure companies have realised they don’t need offices.

@StaffAssociationRepresentative

I think admin jobs that can be done at home will become lower paid - not the nurse who has to go in hospital to work. *@KnobChops*

The nurse has to fork out more for public transport - to compensate for those no longer using it. Making said nurse poorer. NHS jobs are fixed to pre agreed pay bands, so I can’t see the admin staff getting paid less.

@Newdaynewname1

What you all have to remember is that if you can sit home and work, why wouldn’t your boss farm out your jobs to other countries. Very true for many office roles. Not so much for highly specialized roles (my field doesn’t exist at all in china, and is in its infancy in india. Plus there are about 50 people worldwide doing my type of work because it is a highly stressful area to work in ). But yes, either be highly specialized and flexible at the same time, or location bound, otherwise things are looking dim

The problem with the offshoring argument is that Indian salaries are, in practice, higher in comparison because British companies cannot hire non-grads (as they need English skills) and also because inflation is a lot higher. It isn’t uncommon for even inexperienced Indian grads to get paid £20-40k (converted to rupees). Experienced grads tend to be paid even more and their salaries increase by inflation (6-12 percent) each year. This is why the likes of HSBC / JP Morgan / Barclays are automating Indian / Chinese ‘global’ jobs rather than expanding them.

Personally I couldn't bear to WFH. I like going to an office, seeing people, having banter and then going home. Once I'm home I know I can relax. I cannot think of anything worse than not having a work/home divide. If I WFH I'd never feel I could get away from it, it would be like being at work 24/7.

No thanks.

@Undercovermuvver

What you all have to remember is that if you can sit home and work, why wouldn’t your boss farm out your jobs to other countries.

I mean why pay Sarah to use her laptop all day every day when Sara, who lives in India, can do the same for 10k a year, if that...........just a thought

You can outsource script type work but many of us who work in offices aren’t just “doing paperwork” 🙄 as someone up thread suggested. Rather we have minimum competency requirements, ongoing CPD, are heavily regulated, are required to be very familiar with the relevant laws in the country we operate in, to have relationship with other professionals in linked industries and so on and so on.

It’s really not that easy to move all these jobs to people in a different cultural, educational and regulatory environment on the other side of the world. If it was why wouldn’t all these businesses have already rented some cheap office space in ?

[quote GoodDogBellaBoo]@GrumpyHoonMain I’m not in England, and here none of those I’ve mentioned has worked from home during corona. Many of those working in offices here have been made redundant, but others (some lower paid ones) are more in demand than ever. But yes, I’m sure companies have realised they don’t need offices.[/quote]
You have never had a virtual nurse / doctor / surgeon appointment and never had a virtual classroom with your child’s teacher? Really?

For every person productive WFH another will take the piss. I know someone on a 6 week overseas trip at the moment, only taking 2 weeks annual leave. Instagram suggests they ain’t spending any time working.

You can outsource script type work but many of us who work in offices aren’t just “doing paperwork” 🙄 as someone up thread suggested. Rather we have minimum competency requirements, ongoing CPD, are heavily regulated, are required to be very familiar with the relevant laws in the country we operate in, to have relationship with other professionals in linked industries and so on and so on. It’s really not that easy to move all these jobs to people in a different cultural, educational and regulatory environment on the other side of the world. If it was why wouldn’t all these businesses have already rented some cheap office space in

Plenty of firms outsource their payroll, accountancy and tax work out to India etc, successfully. Qualified accountants in India will be very similar to qualified accountants in the UK in terms of technical ability and it's not that much more difficult for someone in India to learn the UK system as it is for someone in the UK if you're doing it as your day job.

I mean why pay Sarah to use her laptop all day every day when Sara, who lives in India, can do the same for 10k a year, if that...........just a thought

Only you can’t pay Sara 10k a year because you want a grad and need to pay according to market. Plus you would need to pay for accomodation / transport / office infrastructure (including your own generater, pipe your own gas and water) and be based somewhere in India where the skilled people for your field are. A bog standard graduate programmer in Pune starts on £20k converted to rupees (same as the UK) and even if they’re mediocre will receive an inflation pay (6-12 percent) increase per Indian regulation. So within 5 years if you aren’t careful you end up paying more than the UK with less of a service SLA.

That is why a lot of companies are trying to automate Indian jobs and bringing back the stuff they can’t automate to the UK.

No I really don’t think so. When the wages hits the bank that’s all that matters. There will always be a wages divide - not a work from home divide.

My friend has discovered she can work from home and her boss is allowing her to continue. She earns an great wage. Yet I know people in our sales team make more and they need to be in the office for the atmosphere and the drive. We’ve had zero complaints about coming back to the office.

The draw back with proving to your boss you can work efficiently from home is that you are showing them the work can be done remotely from some where much cheaper.

Plenty of firms outsource their payroll, accountancy and tax work out to India etc, successfully. Qualified accountants in India will be very similar to qualified accountants in the UK in terms of technical ability and it's not that much more difficult for someone in India to learn the UK system as it is for someone in the UK if you're doing it as your day job

I’m not claiming that no roles can be done in other countries, I was responding to a pps assertion that if Sarah UK can wfh then she can be replaced by Sara India, as though the location of Sarah/Sara and her laptop is the deciding factor. It’s just not true.

@GrumpyHoonMain well, schools aren’t closed here so no I haven’t. The virtual doctor’s I know that do part time virtual and part time in the clinic. Obviously it’s not all black and white, my point was that some of the jobs that perhaps haven’t been that popular are now becoming more popular as they are ’safe’ jobs. Which is a good thing. Better to aspire to become a teacher than an influencer in my opinion.

Sorry for typos.

@user1497207191

You can outsource script type work but many of us who work in offices aren’t just “doing paperwork” 🙄 as someone up thread suggested. Rather we have minimum competency requirements, ongoing CPD, are heavily regulated, are required to be very familiar with the relevant laws in the country we operate in, to have relationship with other professionals in linked industries and so on and so on. It’s really not that easy to move all these jobs to people in a different cultural, educational and regulatory environment on the other side of the world. If it was why wouldn’t all these businesses have already rented some cheap office space in

Plenty of firms outsource their payroll, accountancy and tax work out to India etc, successfully. Qualified accountants in India will be very similar to qualified accountants in the UK in terms of technical ability and it's not that much more difficult for someone in India to learn the UK system as it is for someone in the UK if you're doing it as your day job.

I know Indian accountants who do this. They have usually either been dismissed by their companies for major errors, criminal offences (think fraud or bribery / corruption); or have loads of BCOM (the lowest level of degree) English grads desperately learning accounting (maybe taking ACCA / ACA) while keeping on top of their work. Even the big name Indian consultancies do this as a way of keeping costs down.

I kind of get where OP is coming from. I do a job where I can’t work from home (professional though not MW). I’ll be honest and admit that in lockdown I did feel a pang or jealousy towards people who were working from home. That was mainly from a safety point of view though. I still had to go to work and meet people and put myself at risk (not as much as NHS staff).

It was hell in lockdown. I worked more hours than normal due to other people shielding, was also doing bits of paperwork from home on days I wasn’t at work, homeschooled the kids, dealt with the daily changing government guidelines and the fear of bringing Covid home. At that time I said to a friend that for the first time in my life I wished I had a 9-5 office job that I could do from home.

In reality though I don’t really want to WFH. I love going to work, love the teamwork and the banter. WFH for me would be terrible for my mental health and I think that may be a problem for many who WFH in the future. I do hope businesses are more flexible from now on though and embrace some of the changes that have happened this year.

Most firms will be going for an increased mix of wfh. DH returns next month & will be doing 8 days a month instead of 15 (pre Covid). Time in the office will just be for meetings/checking in etc.

@GrumpyHoonMain

*I mean why pay Sarah to use her laptop all day every day when Sara, who lives in India, can do the same for 10k a year, if that...........just a thought*

Only you can’t pay Sara 10k a year because you want a grad and need to pay according to market. Plus you would need to pay for accomodation / transport / office infrastructure (including your own generater, pipe your own gas and water) and be based somewhere in India where the skilled people for your field are. A bog standard graduate programmer in Pune starts on £20k converted to rupees (same as the UK) and even if they’re mediocre will receive an inflation pay (6-12 percent) increase per Indian regulation. So within 5 years if you aren’t careful you end up paying more than the UK with less of a service SLA.

That is why a lot of companies are trying to automate Indian jobs and bringing back the stuff they can’t automate to the UK.

Actually centres are specific set up for this in South Africa and India. You can either hire out the whole building and send some one over to manage or you hire groups of people already set up in offices ect..

It’s very very cost affective.

imagine (though don't know for certain) that office-based jobs are easier to do from home than, for example, being a cleaner or a barrister or a concert pianist or a nurse

BIL is a barrister & wfh 2 days a wk pre Covid.

Those of us who were not furloughed and had to work whether from home or expecially not from home, are definitely slightly resentful of the class of people who post about the wonderful time they've been having on FB. And it is particularly galling when you've had to work but are not considered front line or essential, to be crowded in the queue for the pub takeaway by the lady 'I only actually work in admin not the front line, and I've not even had to go into the office more than 1 or 2 days a week but the 25% NHS discount this pub gives is wonderful we have been buying pub takeaways at least 3 times a week. '
I let her go first.

I do hope businesses are more flexible from now on though and embrace some of the changes that have happened this year.

Not just businesses. Hopefully the NHS will have seen the benefits of GP/consultant "appointments" by phone too.

I think it's all been a good example of new ways of working that hopefully will filter through to a different kind of working for many in the future. Firms may struggle to recruit if they are inflexible and want new staff to work in offices all the time, so that may persuade them to be more flexible and offer a combination of office/WFH hours.

If the vast majority of jobs that have the ability to wfh are offshored who's going to pay for everything?

You can outsource script type work but many of us who work in offices aren’t just “doing paperwork” 🙄 as someone up thread suggested. Rather we have minimum competency requirements, ongoing CPD, are heavily regulated, are required to be very familiar with the relevant laws in the country we operate in, to have relationship with other professionals in linked industries and so on and so on. It’s really not that easy to move all these jobs to people in a different cultural, educational and regulatory environment on the other side of the world. If it was why wouldn’t all these businesses have already rented some cheap office space in *

I think you would be surprised at how many people already do.

Obviously there will be specific roles that can’t be outsourced but don’t underestimate the education and training that people are already getting on the other side of the world to do these kinds of roles.

It's the other way around for my family. I'm on close to minimum wage and have wfh for a long time before coronavirus.
I wfh on the basis I'd be paid less but not have to pay out for extra childcare?
I used to get paid a decent salary but didn't want to spend most of it on a nanny so moved to this pt low paid work.
In my game it's still much lower pay if you want to get a new job and wfh ft. Not sure about class though. You're often born into a 'class' in the U.K.. I don't think this is represented on if you wfh or not?!