70s rock stars and underage groupies

[ShesMadeATwatOfMePam]

Off the back of the David bowie thread, should modern values count for anything when thinking about the actions of rock stars towards underage (ie 13/14yo girls) who got dressed up to hang around stage doors and threw themselves at rock stars, (insinuation being that they knew what they were doing) or should we accept it's a different time and modern approaches to child protection/young girls being exploited shouldn't stop these people being revered because it was 20+ years ago?

I think that we should absolutely judge these men by modern values because any man in his right mind shouldn't be attracted to 12/13 year old girls no matter what they wear and if it was Dave who helped at guides instead of David bowie then people wouldn't be so quick to excuse him because he was a "musical genius".

Yabu: it was a different time
Yanbu: wasnt acceptable then, isn't acceptable now

any man in his right mind shouldn't be attracted to 12/13 year old girls no matter what they wear

Are you suggesting it’s a mental illness/incapacity?

In England and Wales the age of consent was raised to 16 in 1885.

Never mind "modern values", this was firmly unacceptable legally and morally in the 1970s and had been for decades.

20 years ago was the tear 2000.
40 years ago maybe

The point I was making is that in 1996 sex with underage school children was normal enough to be in a mainstream blockbuster movie without any taboo attached to the subject matter whatsoever.

I remember it being part of the overall controversy around the film, that it showed drug taking and "moral depravity". In the film Renton tells Diane that she is underage and he could go to jail, she tells him she'll go to the police about them having sex if he doesn't see her again. It's not shown as a glamorous or aspirational encounter.

@Billyjoearmstrong if you were out and about in Camden/West End clubs at that time there's a good chance our paths will have crossed!

It was a horrible scene wasn't it. The bands/music journalists/various scene hangers-on were all at it - men in their 20s, 30s and a lot older. The upbeat, loadsa fun, knees up muvver brahhhn portrayal of it in the media at the time was a million miles away from the truth.

@ThisCharmingPenisHaver that’s exactly where I was! From 14 in 1994 until I was about 20. It was hideous looking back. The music journalists were the worst actually.

@Billyjoearmstrong The Spread Eagle, Good Mixer, Dublin Castle, Monarch, Smashing on a Friday, Blow Up on a Saturday... And yes, the journalists were the absolute lowest. One or two in particular, no names but as you were there you'll probably know who I'm talking about.

I was there from 94 - 97, when I skipped off into the sunset to have DD. God knows why I hung around for so long.

I hope you're doing ok now

@ThisCharmingPenisHaver oh god yes, all those places!! Yep, can still remember a couple of those utter wankers names.

Back in 70s it was up to you to keep your hand on your hapenny, if your boss, co worker got hold of you it was your fault not theirs. I went to personnel about a boss who was handsy in 1974 I was sacked. You had to avoid situations where you could be lunged at. Not always easy when you had to use the photocopier room. If you were female had boobs etc. then you were fair game and it was your fault if a man could not control himself. My granny told my mum to never take her coat off in the cinema if on a date with a boy.

Not to derail but I wonder if anyone from the early mid 90s Camden Set (since they've self identified remember a band Butterfingers ...

Cross legged girls, got the world at their feet ...

It was a different time but we can and should still judge it by the standards of today.

All those groupies in the LA scene in the 70s were known for being young even at the time...I don't think any of those musicians can claim they didn't know they were underage. Presumably that was part of their appeal not envy. Pamela Des Barres is quoted as saying that they used to goad her, telling her she was 'over the hill' (she was early 20s)

They were known as baby groupies. I think many of the men were high/drunk and had no judgement whatever. The scene was set to normalise it. I suspect when they sobered up, matured and had families themselves they were sickened by it. There were hangers on, facilitators, that I think were more culpable. Publicists, managers, what have you. People whose task was to provide a 'rock star scene' with all the perks that were expected- sex, drugs, excitement to the extreme. Panders.

It was a different time, where I lived it was great kudos to have a boyfriend with a car. I had boyfriends that were 19, 24, 24, 26 when I was 16 -19. And I turned others down cos they were too old for me, so must have been ancient

And yes, I was in nightclubs and pubs.

@afternoon22

It was a different time but we can and should still judge it by the standards of today.

No, we shouldn’t. It’s a ridiculous viewpoint.

JustAsking1837
I remember a law book in the early 1980s stating that a man could not use the excuse that he thought a girl was of age ie 16, if she was 13 or younger, so legally it would be statutory rape and definitely not acceptable. I remember in 1986 when it came to light about Bill Wyman and Mandy Smith, everyone was horrified and shocked he got off with it and thought it was only because he was a famous rockstar he got away with it.

Mandy Smith was 13 and lots of men were getting away with it. I was pregnant at that age and no groupie. The father, also my legal guardian, was a very ordinary unrelated male, who'd been handed me on a plate.

I think the law making it legally statutory rape if under 13 only came in, in 2003 ( and 13 + but under 16 was sexual activity with a child)
Before that it was an 'gross indecency' and 'unlawful sexual intercourse with a girl under the age of 13, (max 7 yrs) 'gross indecency' translated socially as 'dirty bugger' and it was up to the police who got prosecuted, until CPS got created. If your legal guardian was in the police you had no chance.

General view was unlikely my guardian could get into too much trouble as paternity couldn’t be proved (until ’76) and he could just deny everything. I was the one ‘in trouble,’ not him.
Even for clear coercion the idea that it was in any way rape was laughable. Girls were responsible for protecting themselves and men were doing what was natural. Things were made much harder by the idea that there were all these exciting glam 'tweenies' ‘well up for it.’

I had what I now know wasn’t a legal 'marriage' (here) in 74, but it was enough for SS. In ‘76 it was decided he ‘should make an honest woman of me’ at two days past my 16th birthday.
No one from the judge who shortened my bans on my 16th, to SS, or the GP, batted an eyelid at my age or the ages of my children who clearly dated how long things had been going on.

Teenage Lolita’s, Tweenies, Jailbaiters, Gymslip mums, all 'trying to ruin a man’s life.' Judging the past by today’s standards makes it unfathomable and unavigable and helps no-one.

It was illegal back then. The onus was on the people breaking the law not to break the law. That's how laws work.

And because they broke the law they should still be accountable if alive, or up for reputation damage if not.

I think even mid 90s, young women (14/15) having relationships with older men wasn’t as taboo as it is now. I was 15 dating a 21 year old, at the time I was totally up for it. As an almost 40 year old, it now feels a bit sordid.

@Stillstandingsortof. I’m so sorry for all the people who failed you as a child x

I am a bit on the fence with this. Now I would be horrified and I also will be teaching my boys that in no circumstances should they ever take a girl home if they do not know them and how old they are. Times ARE very different now and that's a good thing. It has never been ok really but it certainly was pretty 'normal' even in the 90s.

When I was 14/15 in the mid 90s I worked in a pub, waitressing and looking after the kids area. I would stay in the pub till closing and have after hour drinks. I was treated and behaved like an adult. I dated customers and some knew my age but some just assumed I was older due to working in the pub (or chose not to think about it).

I used to go clubbing at the same age and met/dated doorman. I never told them my age of course as I wanted to continue getting in.

I don't think it was actually ok then but girls were definitely more mature then, most 14/15 year olds were independent and also worked proper jobs. Teens weren't treated like children like they are now. I think it is much more obvious now that it is not ok.

Looking back on those times I don't actually know how any man could not tell that they were sleeping with a girl rather than a woman but it is how things commonly were. I definitely would have thrown myself at a rockstar when I was 14/15.

I am glad things are different, it should never have been ok but even parents were generally more accepting of it. I think people in positions of authority are more careful now and rockstars would know that they need to ensure they aren't sleeping with underage girls so I bet they are more careful too, I may be wrong but with social media they'd never get away with it. I reckon all the 90s boybands would have slept with loads of young teens.

YANBU my 13 year old just ordered a cute teddy online. Very much still a child.

I’m always wary of forcing current values on past times, I generally don’t think it is right to judge past actions by current standards.

However, I think in this case it is right to criticise people, who 40 years ago were exploiting children for sex. These people were still acting illegally and immorally. I can remember the whole Bill Wyman/Mandy smith thong and my parents calling him a disgusting peado and that her parents should have been hung drawn and quartered for basically selling their daughter.

The whole thing related to men thinking they could do what they liked, it wasn’t just rock stars who thought this, it was bosses, teachers (esp in certain types of schools), journalists, basically s as by one who wielded any sort of power could seemingly abuse children.

I know that teenagers were different then, there was a transition into an adult world, eg going to pubs (usually from about 14), holding down jobs etc and a woman was still pressured into finding a husband to support her as soon as possible. But even then a man should be able to tell the difference between a 13 year old and a 20 year old.

Like a PP has said this wasn’t limited to something in the 70s though. 90s bands were just as susceptible to it. I’m sure in certain quarters things like this continue into today’s world.

I remember older girls from my school actually planning to sleep with members of a seventies band, if they could get access to them after a gig.

But... I’m sure they believed that if that happened, the men would fall in love with them.

The band members did sleep with younger girls, and apparently had their favourites in different towns. They were the ones who knew they had no intention of falling for these girls- they were using them for easy sex, and were old enough to know better.

@KorkMum

YANBU my 13 year old just ordered a cute teddy online. Very much still a child.

Sorry to tell you but you’re just proving the point we’re all making that a 13 year old born in 1957 lived in a completely different world to one born in 2007.

Sorry to tell you but you’re just proving the point we’re all making that a 13 year old born in 1957 lived in a completely different world to one born in 2007.

This is exactly the point. A friend of my fathers left school at 13, and my father left at 14 - imagine boys of that age going out to work now!

Different times indeed. We can debate all we like about the rights and wrongs, but it was a different era and the young groupies of the 70s were nothing like girls of that age now.

My mum, who was born in 1918, left school at 14 to start a hairdressing apprenticeship. Interestingly, there was no way you’d ever have known how little education she’d had - her spelling and grammar were impeccable as was her basic maths and her handwriting was beautiful.