70s rock stars and underage groupies

[ShesMadeATwatOfMePam]

Off the back of the David bowie thread, should modern values count for anything when thinking about the actions of rock stars towards underage (ie 13/14yo girls) who got dressed up to hang around stage doors and threw themselves at rock stars, (insinuation being that they knew what they were doing) or should we accept it's a different time and modern approaches to child protection/young girls being exploited shouldn't stop these people being revered because it was 20+ years ago?

I think that we should absolutely judge these men by modern values because any man in his right mind shouldn't be attracted to 12/13 year old girls no matter what they wear and if it was Dave who helped at guides instead of David bowie then people wouldn't be so quick to excuse him because he was a "musical genius".

Yabu: it was a different time
Yanbu: wasnt acceptable then, isn't acceptable now

As much as I loved Bowie, it makes me fucking sick. I can't even look at Steven Tyler though. He assumed guardianship of an underage girl to make their 'relationship' easier. Most bands were like this in the 70s. Most are now and treat groupies like dirt. The only difference is they aren't underage these days ( hopefully). Bands are well known for checking the legal age in every state/country they tour in. I love a lot of music by bands who were well known to be repulsive with groupies (eg Led Zeppelin) but as human beings, they make me sick.

I agree with a couple of pp that it is complicated as I still bump into ex's that I dated in my teens that were so much older than me, back in the day when it was more widespread. Admittedly, they tend to be a lot more sheepish around me, than I am around them, especially if they are with their own children.

I agree with a couple of pp that it is complicated as I still bump into ex's that I dated in my teens that were so much older than me, back in the day when it was more widespread. Admittedly, they tend to be a lot more sheepish around me, than I am around them, especially if they are with their own children.

Same. A significant ex was extremely sheepish in front of me when I saw him with is now wife and kids (appropriately aged wife). I had the good sense to say I knew him from working with him. Which was true, in part.

Thank you! Will read now. X

i remember back in early 70`s being hit upon by men old enough to be my father who were senior figures in companies I worked for. Thought it disgusting. But a school friend whose parents were busy running a tourist business thought nothing of sending their DD off to festivals, camp sites when she was 14 and over they thought they were sailing festivals. Jimmy Savile was at one, she went into his camper trailer thingy but managed to get away. She went onto be a groupie for the second biggest band in the world, they took her off abroad paid for flights accommodation etc. she loved it. Married a man in the entertainment business who handled world known acts all part of her lifestyle. I have no idea if it left its mark on her, she always followed her own piper privately and career wise, has been very successful setting up her own company in USA. She is a narcissist though so perhaps can compartmentalise things.

Bowie spent most of his early career out of his head on drugs, and shagged anything with a pulse. I am a big fan of his music but would never have considered him a nice man. Bill Wyman married Mandy Smith as part of some sort of a deal to shut her up, iirc they weren't even together any longer, it was damage limitation on his part.

I was 15 in 1975. Probably 50% of my class at school had lost their virginity before the legal target of 16 (and a lot of us did regard it as some sort of target). We were much more mature than girls of a similar age now, for all the time, money and effort they spend on their appearance. Most of us were working in some capacity or other. When we went out we dressed up in a way that made us look older and considered ourselves to be adults. My friends and I were pretty streetwise really.
I followed a few quite famous bands and would have definitely considered sleeping with some of the younger ones, but considered older men to be grim. I think it was more about age gap than considering a legal age of consent.

Reading some of the very different responses from our parents towards their underage teens dating older men reminds me that education is a major factor, similar to the attitude of racism/homophobia etc of yesteryear. Think about it, whilst some people excuse racism /domestic violence from the older generation, there were a lot of people who would have found hitting children for example, highly unexceptable.

@DioneTheDiabolist

The Bill Wyman/Mandy Smith thing was gross and weird back then. I was a yound teen at the time and the adults around me were horrified by it and didn't understand why he wasnt arrested for child abuse.

So was I - when I read the things in the paper, I couldn't believe why anybody would want to a) sleep with a bloke that old or b) sleep with a kid like me.

So I asked my Mother - who said 'these girls know exactly what they're doing and she's the lucky one who managed to get one silly old fool daft enough to marry her'.

Ugh.

The main romantic relationship in Trainspotting involved a school girl, so presumably borderline underage.

Film release date: 1996

It says in the film that she's 15 FATEdestiny it also sees Renton kicking himself that he didn't ask her age and presumed a person he met in an over 18s nightclub was over 18.

I remember when I was at school in the late eighties ( girls Catholic School) , I was shocked by the number of my 14/15 year old peers who were dating men between the ages of nineteen and twenty five. In fact, some of these men would pick these young girls up from school. At the time we didn’t think much of it, in fact we thought it was rather cool. It’s only now, that I have my teenage dcs that I realise how inappropriate this was.
The Mandy Smith / Bill Wyman relationship always made me uncomfortable. She was thirteen years of age and frequenting nightclubs with her sister. Their mother was an absolute disgrace allowing this.
Unfortunately, some men think that it’s acceptable to pursue very young women.
My teenage daughters are often chatted up by men who look older than their own father.

I was a teenager mid 90s and I don't remember girls with older men being an accepted thing. There was one girl in the whole school that was met by a man in his early 20s after school so everyone assumed boyfriend and it really stood out, he was mocked for it by the more outspoken teenagers.

Me and my friend were being harassed by a man in his twenties after we had been to the cinema, we were only 14 and I rang my Dad who came in his car to fetch us but also gave the man a piece of his mind and said he would call the police on him. I can't imagine any of the parents of my friends thinking it was acceptable.

When I went to uni and work I came across lots of entitled men thinking they were entitled to you in some way but I would not have been underage then so they were sexist pigs that were around my age.

This sort of stuff was still going on in some circles a lot more recently than the 70s.

I was living in London in the mid 90s when Britpop was massive. I used to socialise with lots of the big Britpop bands/faces. LOADS of the bands who were huge at the time had members who were regularly having sex with, not to put to fine a point on it, children. There were a few girls who were 13/14 who were 'going out' with household names at the time. It was a vile, misogynistic scene rife with predatory men - I was a bit older (mid 20s) but I was assaulted by one of them. I've stayed in touch with a few of the people I knew then and without exception the young girls who were victims have ended up with eating disorders, addiction issues and MH issues.

It was never acceptable and never will be though I suspect it still goes on today.

I agree with @Intelinside57 - girls left school earlier in those days and lived a much more independent life than they do now at the same age, and they also got married at a younger age. You can't take the standards of one time and apply them to an earlier time - a lot of things were very different.

The main romantic relationship in Trainspotting involved a school girl, so presumably borderline underage.

There is no way that film is seen as, or wanted to be seen as, aspirational though. Unlike the way the magazines like Hello etc were presenting the Mandy Smith/Bill Wyman relationship. Rich older men (pop stars/footballers if you were lucky) were seen as legitimate targets for marriage and if you could catch one, kudos to you. Being a schoolgirl bumping uglies with a drug addict? not so much.

I remember when Theo Walcott was first picked for England he was a teenager and his equally young teenage girlfriend went over to Germany with the WAGs. And there was column after column in the gossip mags/daily fail about how she could really capitalise on this and solidify her brand. Nothing about aspiring to be a footballer or even model or anything for herself. Nope, consolidating her brand as an appendage of a rich young footballer. Sick making, tbh, for so many reasons.

Can I just say that I loathe the term 'groupies', too. It implies that these girls are totally 'up for it' and know what they're getting into. 13 year olds are children ffs.

@Brefugee

The main romantic relationship in Trainspotting involved a school girl, so presumably borderline underage.

There is no way that film is seen as, or wanted to be seen as, aspirational though. Unlike the way the magazines like Hello etc were presenting the Mandy Smith/Bill Wyman relationship. Rich older men (pop stars/footballers if you were lucky) were seen as legitimate targets for marriage and if you could catch one, kudos to you. Being a schoolgirl bumping uglies with a drug addict? not so much.

I remember when Theo Walcott was first picked for England he was a teenager and his equally young teenage girlfriend went over to Germany with the WAGs. And there was column after column in the gossip mags/daily fail about how she could really capitalise on this and solidify her brand. Nothing about aspiring to be a footballer or even model or anything for herself. Nope, consolidating her brand as an appendage of a rich young footballer. Sick making, tbh, for so many reasons.

The point I was making is that in 1996 sex with underage school children was normal enough to be in a mainstream blockbuster movie without any taboo attached to the subject matter whatsoever.

(Aside: I wouldn't throw sickboy outta bed)

it's always been "normal" for underage girls to have sex though. Trainspotting was more in the vein of social comment - it happens and the film reflected it.

the Mandy Smith thing was a whole other level of congratulatory waffle about how brilliant it was for him to attract a "gorgeous young thing" and how clever she was for getting her lolita-like-hooks into a rich old idiot. Truly awful.

I've never equated liking someones music or appreciating their artistic talent as thinking they were a good person. I'm fairly low on admiring people generally, unless I know them personally

I also don't give a fuck about what any pop star or artist or whoever really said about anything political or social, unless that's their whole schtick, just shut up and sing your song, it's what you're good at

It was still going on in the mid 90s britpop era.

First hand experience here!

I think it isn't bands as such, rather individual predators who happen to be in bands. Yes it goes on, I have first hand experience.

Most rock n roll bands I know are complete sweethearts and abhor this sort of behaviour.

I would also point out, I know of girls who, when asked their age would add 5 years on. Still doesn't make it right, and if a man has to ask, hmm.

Second, there's often more drugs than sex. I'd personally be more worried about my DD being exposed to dangerous addictions.

The Bill Wyman/Mandy Smith thing was gross and weird back then. I was a yound teen at the time and the adults around me were horrified by it and didn't understand why he wasnt arrested for child abuse.

Same. I remember stuff in the press about that 'relationship' in the late 80s when I was around 9/10.

My parents thought it was absolutely foul and that BW and MS's mother should be in jail.

I remember a law book in the early 1980s stating that a man could not use the excuse that he thought a girl was of age ie 16, if she was 13 or younger, so legally it would be statutory rape and definitely not acceptable. I remember in 1986 when it came to light about Bill Wyman and Mandy Smith, everyone was horrified and shocked he got off with it and thought it was only because he was a famous rockstar he got away with it.

I think most parents at any time would not find it acceptable for a man to be involved with their young teenage daughter and would probably have given him a good kicking.

I remember finding Carry On Camping very weird when the middle age men (Sid James) were trying to get off with the school girls (Barbara Windsor) . How it was an acceptable storyline I've no idea.