70s rock stars and underage groupies

[ShesMadeATwatOfMePam]

Off the back of the David bowie thread, should modern values count for anything when thinking about the actions of rock stars towards underage (ie 13/14yo girls) who got dressed up to hang around stage doors and threw themselves at rock stars, (insinuation being that they knew what they were doing) or should we accept it's a different time and modern approaches to child protection/young girls being exploited shouldn't stop these people being revered because it was 20+ years ago?

I think that we should absolutely judge these men by modern values because any man in his right mind shouldn't be attracted to 12/13 year old girls no matter what they wear and if it was Dave who helped at guides instead of David bowie then people wouldn't be so quick to excuse him because he was a "musical genius".

Yabu: it was a different time
Yanbu: wasnt acceptable then, isn't acceptable now

the so called wild child girls Emma Ridley and Amanda de Cadanet were actually being painfully neglected by their parents.

Oh God Yes , I remember them .

@Iminaglasscaseofemotion

Absolutely unacceptable. It was only 20 years ago. I would have been 10 and can't imagine anyone in my family accepting at the age of 13 me going out and sleeping with me n twice my age of more. It was illegal then too.

1970 was 50 years ago. It was a very, very different time. A lot of my friends, including me, got married in their late teens.

1970 was 50 years ago. It was a very, very different time. A lot of my friends, including me, got married in their late teens.

The OP said 20+ years ago, and then in another post said these things were still going on in the 90's. So yes, the 70's was 50 years ago, but 20 years ago would have been the 90's.

My mum was 13 in the mid-70s and she recalls a school friend of hers who went out with a man in his 30s, her dad and some other male relatives kicked the shit out of him and the relationship very swiftly ended.

I stand by my original point that while a blind eye may have been turned and lines spun to try justify it, it wasn't right even then.

Even in the 90s my school friends had boyfriends in their 30s or 40s and some even got engaged with no concern from their parents other than it might not last.

I was a young teen in the 90s, was 18 by 1999, and this wasn't the case where I lived. Some girls went out with sixth formers but school had a policy of informing parents if they knew of any involvement between sixth formers and younger pupils so it definitely wasn't something that was encouraged or even approved of. One of my friends had a thing with a DJ who was in his 20s, we were 15 or 16, and her parents came down on her very swiftly when they found out. She was grounded for what seemed like forever and wasn't allowed to see him. We used to read magazines like Bliss, Sugar, More, Mizz, Just Seventeen and on any articles about sex and on the problem pages there would always be a printed reminder somewhere on the page stating that the age of consent was 16 and that sex with someone under 16 was illegal and you should tell a trusted adult if you were being pressured, that sort of thing.

@Iminaglasscaseofemotion

1970 was 50 years ago. It was a very, very different time. A lot of my friends, including me, got married in their late teens.

The OP said 20+ years ago, and then in another post said these things were still going on in the 90's. So yes, the 70's was 50 years ago, but 20 years ago would have been the 90's.

The 70s and the 90s were very different. Take it from someone who was an adult in both eras!

@Miniminiminimini

Again, the OP said 20+ years ago so......

The 70s and the 90s were very different. Take it from someone who was an adult in both eras!

My reply came from the 20+ years in the actual OP, not the heading. I'm aware the 70's was a very different time, I'm not sure where I said it wasn't

As a matter of interest i googled pictures of Mandy Smith and there is no way she ever looked 16. She's like Kylie Minogue who (outside of Neighbours) always looked late 20s/early 30s even as a teenager - and still does even though she's now 107. So i wonder if, in the case of Bill Wyman, he thought it was more acceptable to people because she actually looked older (he knew how young she was) and he got to sleep with a very young woman and mould her into whatever it was his ego wanted out of the relationship?

I was always more surprised with de Cadanet though - but she was one of those rich kids who didn't seem to have anyone putting the brakes on whatever Wild Child shenanegins she was up to that week.

One of the girls i was in the 6th form with had a boyfriend old enough to be her dad, but her mum was one of those who couldn't let go of her youth and they often went out on the town together. Right up until she had a late abortion the mum was fine with everything. Then had a massive hissy fit about being a grandma when she was way too young. So really, there was as much proper neglect going on, as well as the benign neglect the rest of us had (sitting outside the pub with a bottle of coke and a packet of crisps while our parents were inside, for example).

I have just read the absolutely tragic story of kidnapping and sexual abuse of the 'real-life' Lolita, used by Nabakov as inspiration for his novel. The poor child was victim-blamed, even by her own mother, and by 15 she was dead. www.cbc.ca/radio/thesundayedition/the-sunday-edition-september-9-2018-1.4806985/the-forgotten-real-life-story-behind-lolita-1.4807124

I think the very young groupie scene was more of an LA thing, from what I've read. It seems to have started with obsessive young groupies who followed Led Zepellin around on tour and it even spawned a short-lived magazine called Star, which had very young girls on the cover!

The accepted, not acceptable observation is spot on. And yes, the blame was firmly placed on the young girls. I was a vary naive child, but when I was sexually assaulted in the 70s by someone much older when I was still a flat-chested primary schoolgirl, I didn't report it because I knew that I'd be questioned hard about my own part in the assault. It was how people talked. A couple of years later I remember a rumour, totally unfounded, that a classmate was having an 'affair' with another girl's father. Guess who nobody was speaking to? Yes, the 13-year-old. I think the whole thing was entirely fictitious, but it fed into a desire to gossip and blame young girls for leading men astray.

I see a massive difference between teenage girls dressing up and throwing themselves at rock stars and teenage girls groomed for abuse by the likes of Saville and his gang.

The girls see themselves differently too.

I was having sex at 14 and 15. I would bet my ass those I had sex with had no idea how old I was, and if they asked, I lied. I didn't look underage, I was drinking alcohol, in a pub or a nightclub. Or had been at a gig which was supposedly over 18s only. I certainly do not feel taken advantage of, abused or raped. And I have been raped, but not then.

@Iminaglasscaseofemotion yes which is why I replied to you and not the OP.

I’ve been reading Tracey Thorn’s memoirs of adolescence - she was born in 1962 and from her own diaries realises she was going to discos, buying alcohol, and getting off with/being groped by adults (one’s a police man!) at 13 and that this was not seen as at all wrong - and that in fact her parents were regarded as strict and she lived in a very mundane suburban area. It was regarded as totally and utterly par for the course for a 13 year old girl to have boyfriends who were in their 20s and drove cars etc.

I read Mandy Smiths book in the 90s and she was groomed by Bill Wyman. Her mum was aware of what was going on , but didn't stop any of it , sadly. The marriage didn't last long. He was just a creep and she was very naive.
I wasn't aware of Bowie until I opened the thread about him. I like some of his songs and albums but it feels wrong : same with hearing anything by Michael Jackson and I used to like his music too.
I'm sure that many stories may come out about things that went on with many big stars in the 80s and 90s. Even seeing ' the Glitter band ' being mentioned makes me feel sick. Vile horrible nasty men.
It may well have been ' different times' but adults should have kept an eye on these girls and boys abused by these people. They were badly let down. My mum used to warn me many times to be so careful : she was abused by her uncle in the 1930s and it scarred her for life , sadly.

How anyone could abuse a child or a young teen? It beggars belief what goes on and it's usually the rich or famous that seem to get away with it too , it seems. Praying on the vulnerable because they can and were helped to cover it up as well. People knew about Savill , but kept quiet for years.
All very sad.

A lot of us found it gross and weird at the time , too @sleepingpup .

Totally. But I was only a young teen myself and just remember thinking " eww how could she? " ( obviously totally missing the point) But what I also remember is the spreads in Hello mag and pics in gossip columns. Them as a glam celeb 'couple'.

The relationship between a man in his 40s and a child did NOT seem to be the main issue. That is truly shocking to me now.

Bill Wyman and Mandy Smith.

Well, no, it was seen as something to aspire to, wasn't it? all those teen mags thought that we wanted tips on how to look older, how to act older etc etc, despite all the photo stories about Sarah and Luke from the 'tec. (I didn't even know what a flipping 'tec was - but i did know that most of the lads my age were fine for mucking around with but someone like John Taylor would be a far better and superior boyfriend for me)

A lot of us were drinking in pubs from about 16 or 17 and to be honest as long as we were with friends (at least in my case) we looked out for each other. Anyone over about 21 was seen as old and therefore creepy for the most part. We had the lives we lived, and the glamorous lives we fantasised about (hanging round with rich, good looking rock stars) and given the chance we'd have jumped at the latter. For most of us it was escapism, but for some girls - well, they were the groupies and their friends and while they were groomed i don't think the footballers/pop stars (for the most part) went out looking for them. They were pop stars and therefore babe magnets anyway! (I'm sure a lot of them got into it as a way of attracting girls, too)

It's a really really complicated thing, and i don't think it's a bad thing that we recognise that a lot of what went on then was bad and wrong and not acceptable and are more aware of it now and looking out (hopefully) for the victims of this kind of thing. But probably not nearly enough. I wonder what things we do now that are acceptable (or even "not acceptable but accepted" which is a great way of putting it) but in 50 years we'll look back and shout "WHAT WERE WE THINKING?!"

People's view of how bad this is also seems coloured by how cool the rock star is perceived as being!

Mandy’s mum said there was nothing to hold Mandy back. Quite a lot of 14-15 year-olds are into dating, sex and older men and it was more acceptable in the 60s and 70s. Back then kids were less mollycoddled and generally spent less time with their parents and more time out in each other’s company. Different times. Plus a lot of these girls look much older than their age and could pass for an18-20 year-old and I am sure a lot of them lied about their age. And it will never occur to a rock star to ask an eager groupie’s age.

When the Beatles were still playing in Liverpool my mum was about 14 and not allowed to go to their concerts. Plenty of her friends would dress up to look older and hang around the venues. She said they were all hoping for more than an autograph, though most were very naive and may have ran off if any had tried to do more than kiss them

Totally inexcusable and colours my view of so called "nice guys" like David Bowie.

I was a young teen in the mid 1980's and there was always a lot of older men hanging around secondary schools, it wasn't at all unusual. I was always grossed out by them, but my friend went out with a few at 14/15.

I don't think it was just an LA/america thing either, I used to know someone who was the illegitimate son of a very famous English band (a trio) in the 1970's/80's (lead singer went on to become very famous solo, though he isn't the father) and his mother gave birth to him at just turned 16, hence was underage when pregnant, and adopted him out. So it was very common.

People's view of how bad this is also seems coloured by how cool the rock star is perceived as being!

well that's because we're talking about teenage girls. Roger Taylor (Queen drummer) was beautiful back then, loads of us fancied him. John Taylor (Duran Duran) and David Sylvian (Japan) were (to my teenaged eyes) unutterably beautiful and i could well imagine that it would be lovely to be their girlfriend (although given the amount of make-up they wore, i wonder now what it would have been like waking up to them either without the slap or covered in last night's mess!)

Gary Glitter was always old and creepy to me - i remember my parents always used to say that he looked permanently surprised because he'd had that many face lifts his eyebrows were up at his hairline. For them he was just trying to look/stay young to keep up the fun of being a rock star. That it was part of a bigger problem didn't occur to them because they could imagine someone my age fancying an old git like that.

The Radio 1 DJs were also pretty ancient looking, but i can imagine a young girl agreeing to sex with them on the promise of being introduced to Boy Band du Jour. My own parents would have been horrified if they thought i was trying to angle myself a rock star when i went out with mates. We were more likely to be at Spud-u-like sharing a potato because our pocket money had run out already, and that was how it was for me. If I'd been in London back then, though, with much easier access to these people - who knows?

I think that it probably was always looked down upon or viewed as wrong but sexist attitudes meant the girls got the blame. My auntie was dating my uncle when she was 13 and he was 19, he got her pregnant at 15 and she was married by 17. This was in the 70’s, my grandparents hated him and tried to stop the relationship, they thought he was taking advantage of her and was too old as did most of the family, but I doubt that even if they got the police involved anything would have been done as she was very willing to carry on seeing him, she said most of her friends were also dating grown men at 13 and 14, so it wasn’t exactly unusual.

I even remember when I was at school in the early 2000s underage girls 13-15 dating 18+ men and no one said anything, we all frowned upon it, but nothing was actually done as they were seen as willing.

I can’t find the Bowie thread, has it been removed?? Or can somebody link it please xxxx