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Original poster

To have liked the way Mishal Husain (?) finished by emphasising that her interviewee is DOCTOR Rashid Abbasi?

85 replies

PerditaProvokesEnmity · 03/08/2020 09:02

On Radio 4, Today prog.

I could weep for the way human beings are treated in England. Desperately ashamed to be a citizen of this country. (Of course we only know what's been reported - but the context suggests that the police behaviour could never be justified.)

OP posts:
Sudofuckoff · 04/08/2020 11:44

@SchrodingersImmigrant

Is the Christian legal centre the same one which latched onto Evans too?
The clc are scum.
FlyingLoo · 04/08/2020 13:45

@JellyBellies I suspect your guess is correct, I remember reading somewhere about the dad barging past the doctor and so the police were called. Unfortunately I cannot remember where I read it

JellyBellies · 04/08/2020 14:09

@oldwhyno

"would the police have handled him in exactly the same manner?" Reaching a little bit aren't you? Why are you so desperate to see racism where there's no evidence of it? Isn't there enough actual racism out there for you to go and vent your outrage on?

I'm starting to feel somewhat ashamed that citizens of this country are hell bent on bringing our institutions into disrepute by peddling nonsense online without full knowledge of the facts, and pulling the racism alarm cord at the drop of a hat.

Oh wait, I see what's going on. You're actually part of the right wing forces of darkness trying to divide the nation. I'm not falling for it. I'm going to keep an open heart and mind.

Get thee behind me Satan.

Thanks @FlyingLoo.

I'm struggling with the comment of - why are you so desperate to see racism! Seriously?

How arrogant, how privileged , how unaware of how the world works you must be to have to ask that question.

chrislilleyswig · 04/08/2020 14:16

@BringMeTea

Oh. It's you again.
Quite
Comefromaway · 04/08/2020 14:18

From living in the North West I woud say that it is highly likely that the majority of the hospital consultants would be of ethnic background.

He may be a doctor but there is a reason why ethics dictate that you do not treat members of your own family. It is impossible to remain detached enough. You have to put aside all emotions and do what is in the best interests of the patient.

If, as has been reported, he assaulted a doctor it is understandable given the tragic circumstances, but not acceptable.

purpleme12 · 04/08/2020 14:55

I found watching the footage really really hard and really distressing

oldwhyno · 04/08/2020 15:21

well best of luck with your struggle JellyBellies Hmm but it's really not that hard to grasp. QualityFeet made some effort to explain how racism was a contributing factor in the incident. None of it amounted to actual evidence, and was if anything suggestive of QualityFeet's own subconscious prejudices. (a police officer doesn't sit on a chair = racism. wtf?!)

They then went on to make a thinly veiled accusation that I was also racist for not blindly accepting their judgement that the incident was predicated on underlying racism. That's a classic way to try and shut down debate so I kind of lost interest, and now you're trying the same line.

I feel sorry for you both, and OP, if you see the world through that prism.

JellyBellies · 04/08/2020 15:29

Actually @oldwhyno, I regretted what I wrote just after I posted.

I think why this struck a chord with me so much is that maybe a year ago, I may have thought the same thing you just said.

However, since then I have become very aware of unconscious bias, and the fact that racism does not have to be obvious to play a part, if you see what I mean.

Unconscious stereotyping which we all do can lead to actions that the person committing may not realise are racist.

You don't have to believe me, but, if you are interested I do recommend reading up on it. Or watching the show on channel 4 on - the school that tried to end racism.

YgritteSnow · 04/08/2020 15:36

However, since then I have become very aware of unconscious bias, and the fact that racism does not have to be obvious to play a part, if you see what I mean.

Unconscious stereotyping which we all do can lead to actions that the person committing may not realise are racist.

Important to remember that these are academic concepts only. A concept you have chosen to believe in but not everyone will or has to. What reading do you suggest by the way? If it's "White Fragility" then that book and it's ideas is being very much criticised currently not least because the author now runs follow up workshops on how not to be racist and charges thousands of dollars per person to attend. That white woman sure is making a lot of money out of telling everyone they're racists that's for sure.

JellyBellies · 04/08/2020 15:44

@YgritteSnow OK, so to respond on the fact that this is only an academic concept.

Here is a suggestion. When you are out and about or if you are watching some thing and you see a man/woman/child do so thing you really like, something that instinctively makes you think, oh I like them - at this point try switching that person's ethnicity in your head. So if it a white woman replace her with a black woman, a little white child, replace with a black/Asian child and the examine your instinctive response - is it really exactly the same?

Similarly for situations where you feel threatened /scared - switch the ethnicity of the people and re-examine your first, emotional, instinctive response.

Please honest with yourself, no one else can judge this.

All I can say is that I did this and I found my own unconscious biases. I have recommended this to other people who have told me the same.

YgritteSnow · 04/08/2020 15:52

Thank you but I genuinely don't need a lecture on uncivilised bias from you. I've done considerable reading myself and have formed my own ideas and you've no idea of my background.

I reiterate that these ideas all started as academic concepts which have found their way into the mainstream. We can choose whether or not we believe them and it's important that people are not shamed or labelled as racist because they do not agree with certain concepts that others do.

YgritteSnow · 04/08/2020 15:53

Unconscious not uncivilised!

JellyBellies · 04/08/2020 16:08

OK, it wasn't a lecture though, it was an experiment that I suggested to prove that this is not just academic but real.

And you have no idea about my background either so I don't think this is worthwhile point to argue on.

YgritteSnow · 04/08/2020 16:10

OK, it wasn't a lecture though, it was an experiment that I suggested to prove that this is not just academic but real.

Real to you, and others who might choose to believe these concepts.

Original poster
PerditaProvokesEnmity · 04/08/2020 16:47

Important to remember that these are academic concepts only.

It's good to know, YgritteSnow, that with one bold sentence you have comprehensively swept away the experiences of millions of people over countless years. I am grateful. My life will be different now.

OP posts:
YgritteSnow · 04/08/2020 17:15

It's good to know, YgritteSnow, that with one bold sentence you have comprehensively swept away the experiences of millions of people over countless years. I am grateful. My life will be different now.

Oh stop with the hyperbole Grin I have done no such thing. These are concepts that were created in and emerged from US west coast universities. Many have been educated in or educated themselves via such books as "White Fragility" in these academic concepts and found they resonated with their own experience but many have not and I reject the accusations and certainty of racism that follow any questioning of these concepts, and assertions that "it's real!". Like it or not people can decide for themselves what they believe and what's "real" and it's not racist to examine a concept, relate it your own lived experience and reject it if it doesn't tie in. It's not a popular view these days I grant you, given that it's taken over mainstream examination of race within various societies, but it's not racism. However I don't suggest for one moment you have to agree with me on that because what I say is "real", it's just what I think and I certainly wouldn't feel offended that choose to believe otherwise.

QualityFeet · 04/08/2020 17:27

Am interested - what would be your explanation Ygritte of why interviewers reject BAME names for interviews but make offers to the same profile with an anglicised name? Why am I presumed to be part of the team by clients / the public when my BAME colleague is so often taken to be the cleaner and so often asked if she will get a more senior staff member when that never happens to me?

KOKOagainandagain · 04/08/2020 17:52

@YgritteSnow please don't imagine that real life events can be dismissed or minimalised as academic debates. This is an insult to academic investigation and this kind of absolutism leads to a lack of empathy and exacerbates the issues being investigated.

It is not about whether you can prove racism absolutely but to question whether race may have been a factor in obvious lack of compassion in police dealing with educated, middle class, medically qualified parents dealing with the death of their child. Have white parents experienced similar? If not, why not?

Academic investigation is about asking questions.

itsgettingweird · 04/08/2020 18:03

That footage is horrific.

Whatever had happened previously they were calm at that moment.

Mum was trying to explain they were concerned to leave their ds bedside in case dr withdrew life support. They wouldn't listen.

Then that arrogant female officer trying to say she knew more about the situation and care than mum and dad did.

The way the grabbed dad by the neck and pulled him off that chair having stated it wasn't good for their ds to have a scene around the bedside was horrific.

I don't doubt conversations needed to be had and there was conflict. I don't doubt there had been previous issues as police mention previous call out.

What I question is whether the police needed to behave as they did in that exact moment of time and if it meets the test of reasonable proportionate and necessary.

Haenow · 04/08/2020 18:08

I had an opinion view which, I thought, was quite balanced until I watched the video. Those officers handled it very badly and their response was disproportionate and unacceptable. Systemic racism and unconscious bias is not always plain to see. However, I saw it and I am deeply uncomfortable with the way those parents were treated. How tragic for them.

itsgettingweird · 04/08/2020 18:10

Sorry phone has corrected my dd to ds. I know it was a daughter Blush

Cadent · 04/08/2020 18:16

Mr and Mrs Abbasi fought a three-week legal battle against hospital bosses to overturn draconian reporting restrictions that prevented them telling their story;

This says it all doesn't it? The hospital tried desperately to hide the story and even now the hospital can't be named.

The girl's mum is correct, the doctors/nurses/police had no compassion for this family and sadly, I too think race played a part.

Cadent · 04/08/2020 18:17

Then that arrogant female officer trying to say she knew more about the situation and care than mum and dad did.

Completely agree. Saying 'from one mother to another' when this lady's child was dying was cruel.

Cadent · 04/08/2020 18:20

@SchrodingersImmigrant

If you assault a medical staff, you shouldn't be just quietly told you will be spoken later, you should be dealt with immediately. No matter what your colour

and yet no proof of the assault?

oldwhyno · 05/08/2020 11:48

@JellyBellies As it happens I do agree with that. I'm aware of unconscious bias, and like many others have become even more aware of the racism that exists, consciously and subconsciously, throughout our society over the last year.

That doesn't mean we can look upon every instance where people from racial minorities are mistreated and conclude a racial motivation. Assuming racism without justification is prejudice itself. But more importantly doing so will not help change attitudes in huge numbers of people. It might work for some individuals but for many it will more likely push them in the other direction.

So even if you think that racism played a part in the actions of those police officers, calling it out without a credible justification is a problem in my opinion, as many people will think you're just tilting at windmills and find it easy to dismiss. And I think that family need to have their case judged on it's actual merits. They're suing for wrongful arrest, not racial discrimination.