To have liked the way Mishal Husain (?) finished by emphasising that her interviewee is DOCTOR Rashid Abbasi?

[PerditaProvokesEnmity]

On Radio 4, Today prog.

I could weep for the way human beings are treated in England. Desperately ashamed to be a citizen of this country. (Of course we only know what's been reported - but the context suggests that the police behaviour could never be justified.)

oldwhyno I obviously have no idea what your life experience has been - so you may not understand what I'm saying - but it is an incontrovertible fact that non-white people in England are held to a much higher standard of behaviour than the white population.

If a black person ever dares to raise their voice to a white person they are labelled schizophrenic and dragged off in manacles. If they argue, they're aggressive; if three black teenagers stand and gossip on a street corner or even in their schoolyard, they're told they look intimidating. I am speaking generally of course - I don't need a million counter-examples, they wouldn't change my perception of how life is.

As I have said before, I can't know exactly what this particular 58 year old NHS doctor did - but I imagine he behaved as someone does when police try to remove you from your dying daughter's bedside. Unfortunately the police probably did not behave the way they would have done if it had been Jacob Rees-Mogg and his wife frantic and pleading. Non-white people are expected to be quiet, head down, non-confrontational in every situation.

Here’s a link to the body cam footage for anyone interested
metro.co.uk/2020/08/02/grieving-dad-arrested-daughters-bedside-moments-told-wouldnt-survive-13071529/

YABU.

PerditaProvokesEnmity it's a horrific incident for that family and potentially traumatising for the care professionals involved as well. I don't question whether the police could have handled it better and without full facts wouldn't even try and sit in judgement. But so far there's zero evidence of individual or systemic racism in this case.

You won't garner support for your cause like this. It'll have the opposite effect.

My cause?

Desperately ashamed to be a citizen of this country.

Maybe consider emigration then? Good luck!

Oldwhyno your reading of this is bizarre. Why so reluctant to see race as a causal factor in the treatment of this family? I work as an advocate often for individuals from the BAME community and it is eye opening. I would have been amazed if those police officers had been so dismissive of me, of my opinion, of my distress. I have regularly experienced the disconnect of an individual not having empathy for my client’s medical problems or housing situation but then apologising/empathising with me for the poor parking situation or something equally inconsequential.

I'm genuinely wondering where the personal responsibility is here? I mean why were they willing to make this huge, violent scene around their very ill child, let alone the impact it must have had on all the other patients and families in the unit. He was being asked to go to hospital parent accommodation from what I could hear, not leave all together. We don't know the full story because the NHS staff won't be allowed to talk about it until there's a full investigation. I will reserve judgment till I hear the other side too.

QualityFeet What evidence is there so far to support race being factor in this case?

Well that extraordinary lack of respect, refusal to make eye contact, answer questions, accept the proffered chair, the lack of sympathy for parents explaining that every moment of their daughters life matters, the lack of sympathy for the fact that it was only thirty mins earlier that they found out that the hospital was removing the tube, shouting the words ‘animal’ and ‘disgusting’... these all show that the parents are being treated as other and it’s not because of their low educational attainment / social class membership. If you only want to believe in proof of overt racism with racist language then your bar is set very low. I would like to believe that’s naivety but very often it’s racism. Many people from BAME groups have explained their lived realities of insidious racism, I see it as an advocate all the time.

When you look at one stop and search of a BAME man or hear about the death of one BAME mother in labour it might not look like it is necessarily racism behind either then you look at the stats and as you realise a 5 x death rate for BAME mothers and the overuse of Sand S for BAME community members then you see the racism.

Oh. It's you again.

OP, do you really think assaulting a consultant would be ok if the gentleman in question was white? For all we know the consultant was a BAME person themselves. There's really never a set of circumstances where you won't be removed from a hospital if you're a visitor who assaults medical staff

I'd be pretty careful about accusing an NHS hospital consultant of assault if I were you. Libel laws exist.

do you really think assaulting a consultant would be ok if the gentleman in question was white?

But that's not quite the issue, is it? As I understand it, the police arrived some time after the alleged assault, at a point where the parents were sitting at their daughter's bedside. If he was presenting no immediate threat, in these exceptional circumstances, it would surely have been possible to inform him briefly, right there, that they would be speaking to him later. I suspect that, or some similar course of action, is what would might have taken place if other people had been involved.

I can only quote what QualityFeet has written :

I would have been amazed if those police officers had been so dismissive of me, of my opinion, of my distress.

I think that the issue of institutionalised racism becomes an issue when behaviour from law enforcers escalates a difficult situation rather than de-escalation tactics that are normally applied to other (white) people exhibiting the same behaviour in similar situations.

The truth is that family members often become distressed and behave angrily in distressing situations when a loved one is perceived to be allowing to deteriorate or die when something could be done in the short term but will not effect overall survival.

Medical staff can objectivise this - family can't. Normally, in extremity, perfection of response is not a requirement - leeway is given - anger is acknowledged as a normal response. Staff deliver bad news and exit to allow time to process.

I shouted at my mum's consultant because truth be told from their POV she was old and was going to die anyway but from mine, she was dying because of neglect.

Complex grieving would have only been made worse by using security/police to evict me. Maybe if I wasn't white (because clearly being educated so called middle class makes no difference) they would have called security.

From what I saw on the body cam footage, there was no immediate reason to intervene. All would have remained calm had there been no intervention.

Despite the mother asking about compassion directly, there was none shown in respect of distressed parents, just the bizarre claim that compassion was only due to the child and that meant parents absenting themselves.

Would you calmly leave your dying child's bedside because you wouldn't be far away and you would be informed of immanent death or would you never even be asked to do that (because of compassion)? And if there was no compassion and you were dragged away, would you kick and scream?

But that's not quite the issue, is it? As I understand it, the police arrived some time after the alleged assault, at a point where the parents were sitting at their daughter's bedside. If he was presenting no immediate threat, in these exceptional circumstances, it would surely have been possible to inform him briefly, right there, that they would be speaking to him later. I suspect that, or some similar course of action, is what would might have taken place if other people had been involved.

Police usually takes time to arrive. If you assault a medical staff, you shouldn't be just quietly told you will be spoken later, you should be dealt with immediately. No matter what your colour

I have listened to the radio 4 interview and watch the body cam footage.

By the time the police arrived, the situation was calm. The father says in the interview that the consultant blocked him from entering his daughters room after telling them that they were going to take her off life support. I imagine that he pushed his way in as he is in the room in the body cam footage. So I am assuming that this is the alleged 'assault'.

I can't imagine any parent reacting differently if they felt the hospital was letting their child die instead of helping them. The police situation was unnecessarily escalated. Why? Why not let them grieve at her bedside?

You're all so much more eloquent that I feel able to be on this subject.

For the sake of clarity - I quoted QualityFeet's comment to underline that these differences in treatment are apparent to people not directly affected. For myself, I've seen far too much, both as a legal professional and as a mere human being.

I must say, some other responses here make me wonder exactly how those posters would behave towards me if we met in a work or social situation ...

Perdita you are plenty eloquent and heartfelt. I found that footage really shook me and I remain stunned by some other responses to it.

Apparently the police deleted the body cam footage of the other officers. Hmmm

The police man and woman who were shown being that aggressive should never work in the police again.

No matter the backstory, the situation was calm when they entered.

They don't get to lay into sex offenders because of their crimes, so no, being that violent and heartless is not justified because he had allegedly assaulted someone that day.

And given the circumstances, pushing someone out the way seems quite understandable.

Calling a very soon to be grieving father an animal is severe provocation and shows a desire to escalate the situation. It shows a true lack of empathy.

Indeed.

(I'm pleased the thread looks a little prettier now ...)

Perdita you are plenty eloquent and heartfelt. I found that footage really shook me and I remain stunned by some other responses to it.
**THIS