Lucy Worsley and the N word

[BlackKite]

Lucy Worsley is getting a kicking on Twitter. She was doing a TV show about the American Civil War and quoted someone opposed to the emancipation of slaves, using the N word.

t.co/g76XVwQTjk?amp=1

On the show, it’s clear that it’s a quote and she briefly warns the viewer before uttering the word.

AIBU to think that in the context, historians should be able to use kind of language without giving offense?

Damn, Meant to write Lucy Worsley in the title. Can @MNHQ change it please?

I agree.

I remember years ago on MN there was a sensible discussion about the 'N word', it's origins, whether it should be removed from children's nursery rhyme books etc.

But anyone who posted the full word during the sensible discussion, instead of blocking part of it out or typing "The N word", got deleted by MNHQ

So they allowed the subject of the word to be discussed but banned the typing of the actual word itself.

Very odd. I know people get upset seeing it/hearing it and I totally understand that but then I'd expect those people to browse the other threads.

I agree with you. She was using it in its historical context and it was a quote.

I remember reading Huckleberry Finn at secondary school. It was used regularly throughout the book.

I'm quite a fan of Lucy Worsley, btw. I like the way she presents all of her TV shows. It really draws me in.

Lucy Worsley does my favourite programmes. Entirely acceptable l would say.

YANBU , it’s getting ridiculous if people can’t even use quotes . Her programmes are always excellent and well worth watching .

Ridiculous for her to be attacked when she was clearly quoting what someone at the time said.

I thought the programme last night was marvelous. It isn't a period of history I knew a great deal about beforehand . We should all know more about it as it places the current issues around the experiences of black people, particularly in the USA, firmly in context.

Is context not important anymore?

Something similar happened with the R word @WorraLiberty the discussion was about JFK,s sister who had learning disabilities,and was diagnosed as a" R " whilst clearly it wouldn't have been acceptable to use the term in this day and age in the context of the of the discussion I felt it was appropriate given it was her diagnosis, however Mumsnet HQ said the R word should never be used , interestingly a few months later a similar thread used the word in full and it was allowed to stand 🤔

@x2boys

Something similar happened with the R word *@WorraLiberty* the discussion was about JFK,s sister who had learning disabilities,and was diagnosed as a" R " whilst clearly it wouldn't have been acceptable to use the term in this day and age in the context of the of the discussion I felt it was appropriate given it was her diagnosis, however Mumsnet HQ said the R word should never be used , interestingly a few months later a similar thread used the word in full and it was allowed to stand 🤔

Perhaps it's down to the opinion of the moderators at the time?

Bit silly though if that's the case.

I agree that in certain contexts it should be said. For example imagine if they shut it down in courts. It shows the mind of perpetrators and saying "n word" just doesn't show the emotion in the same way. Same in historical quotes.

I would be extremely suprised if LW was in any way racist.

I have to ask. Who is doing the kicking? Because often it's not even the black people...

It is acceptable in this case. But there is always going to be thousands of incensed and complaining numpties banging on about this.

Years ago before my Mum died, she was a great knitter,. We were sitting in Morrisons cafe having lunch, and telling me that she was still looking for some brown wool, to knit me a brown cardigan that I had requested.. She said I have been looking high and low for that lovely 'n-word brown' colour that she had used years ago. It was a standard colour with that name years ago.

MY Mum. and lots of her elderly knitting lady friends, never seemed to associate this N, brown colour as of any consequence, they just liked the colour, and it was nicer than plain black wool for a jumper or cardigan years ago.

Ridiculous not to allow it in the context of historical discussion - and equally ridiculous to feel the need to warn in advance.
It's a kind of virtue-signalling to flag up that you wouldn't use the word in conversation .. well, nobody sensible thought you would.
Do people really sit in university seminars coyly discussing the n-word?

YANBU, OP.

@x2boys. Place matters as much as time. The ‘R word’ was in use as legitimate medical terminology in the USA until fairly recently. www.federalregister.gov/documents/2013/08/01/2013-18552/change-in-terminology-mental-retardation-to-intellectual-disability. The UK dropped it much earlier. It was definitely in context in terms of post war USA.

In fact exactly what @schrodingersimmigrant says. If you sanitise the word by using coy euphemisms, then you're sanitising shocking events in history.

Do people really sit in university seminars coyly discussing the n-word?

That word absolutely wouldn’t be used in university seminars. If it was, I would expect complaints to be made, and rightly so.

I saw the clip although not the whole programme - the whole thing seemed too light in tone, there was also an odd segment where she asked a black historian whether George Washington treated his slaves badly (!) and a very poor taste item where LW cosplayed as plantation mistress.

I’m not surprised there have been criticisms - plenty from historians of this period (which LW is not) and from black historians as well.

@1forAll74, I still have a reel of thread in my sewing box that is clearly labelled "N-word brown".

I think it probably dates back to the 1970s, which was before I realised that brown makes me look like death warmed up.

Ludicrous! I watched that and she couldn't have been more clear about the word....

And the R word is still used daily in some areas. Away from it's use for people it's a specific term often used in engineering, fabric manufacturing and many other areas.

YANBU. It was firmly in context.

There was also an odd segment where she asked a black historian whether George Washington treated his slaves badly (!) TBF I think she asked him that so that he could give his answer, which IIRC was along the lines of 'that question doesn't compute because if someone is enslaved then by definition they are not treated like a human.'

The dressing up as a plantation mistress: I have only a dim recollection of the detail, but from what I recall of the programme generally, she put all that in its context too (I think she discusses Gone With the Wind and makes clear how it's problematic?).

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Ludicrous! I watched that and she couldn't have been more clear about the word....

And the R word is still used daily in some areas. Away from it's use for people it's a specific term often used in engineering, fabric manufacturing and many other areas.

I’d forgotten about that. An example being flame R word ant.

I completely agree. I transcribe old censuses - there is a column on old censuses for the enumerator to record whether someone was "deaf and dumb, blind, imbecile or idiot, or lunatic". Obviously that is not language that we would use now.

But we cannot impose 2020 standards on documents from 1871. The fact that sort of language was used tells you a lot about attitudes to disabilities in Victorian times. Yes we're in much more enlightened times now and quite right too. But you can't go back and rewrite historical documents.

Since it's a repeat, can't people just repost their original outrage ?

Or (let me guess) there wasn't any last year (was it last year ?)

No, I don't think she should have said it.

Is this the same show where she dresses up as a plantation owner's wife, by any chance?