Lucy Worsley and the N word

[BlackKite]

Lucy Worsley is getting a kicking on Twitter. She was doing a TV show about the American Civil War and quoted someone opposed to the emancipation of slaves, using the N word.

t.co/g76XVwQTjk?amp=1

On the show, it’s clear that it’s a quote and she briefly warns the viewer before uttering the word.

AIBU to think that in the context, historians should be able to use kind of language without giving offense?

YANBU. Imo it's dangerous to scrub undesirable behaviour from history. After a while the deniers creep in and say, 'Well did it even happen?" So long as the historian gives the context, explains it's a quote and reflects the time in which it was written, then it's not only not offensive, it's informative.

I always cringe when I hear white people saying it. I'm white and I just couldn't be comfortable ever using that word, no matter the context.

The dressing up as a plantation mistress: I have only a dim recollection of the detail, but from what I recall of the programme generally, she put all that in its context too (I think she discusses Gone With the Wind and makes clear how it's problematic?).

From a vague memory wasn't she discussion the fact that there are GWTW themed weddings you can have to play dress up in order to (literally) whitewash the past ?

None of which detracts from the fact that Lucy Worsley is one of the most annoying people on TV.

And, btw, agree with @AgileLass that you certainly wouldn't use the word in full in a history seminar at university.

That doesn't mean discussion would be 'coy' at all. Why would it?

All the people pearl-clutching about how important it is to say the word itself ... clearly, you all understood perfectly well what was meant by the thread title?

Yanbu and I’m glad to see that 93% of Mumsnetters have some sense of proportion.

Imo it's dangerous to scrub undesirable behaviour from history.

How is this doing that, though? If you say 'the n-word,' no one does not either 1) understand perfectly well what you mean, demonstrating that it's hardly a historical slur we have to work to keep within living memory, or 2) have the ability to look it up.

And to be honest it's not up to white middle class women on MN to decide whether it's offensive or not.

@Waxonwaxoff0

And to be honest it's not up to white middle class women on MN to decide whether it's offensive or not.

Good not everyone on MN is white or MD

Two different things though. People using the word in 2020, in a discussion about things which happened in the past - not appropriate.

Direct quoting from words spoken in the past or written on a document - entirely appropriate as that is what was actually said/written at the time.

@SchrodingersImmigrant no, the majority are though.

She used it as a context and in a historical programme that's acceptable.

People of a certain age and above in the UK would use the N word in a choosing rhyme, that was inappropriate and I don't see it'd ever be necessary to quote that outwith a programme about the history of children's rhyme or a book like that by the Opies. It's certainly not anything I'd share in a casual conversation - who would need to know that children used to use an awful racist term and, furthermore, see it as totally normal. I don't think it was even mentioned on my history of children's literature course; obviously it covered racism in texts but the most offensive terms (though that's my value judgement, others might value terms differently) were not mentioned.

If she was quoting a historical reference that used the word Cunt, I'm pretty sure she'd have self-censored.

So, for all the appeals to historical context, there are some words that were acceptable in history that we agree not to say in full on television.

There was also an odd segment where she asked a black historian whether George Washington treated his slaves badly (!) TBF I think she asked him that so that he could give his answer, which IIRC was along the lines of 'that question doesn't compute because if someone is enslaved then by definition they are not treated like a human.

Not seen it, but I hope it was this context. I remember when I was doing a theology course, some of the trainee ministers were saying the bible said that slaves needed to be treated well and given a day off work, and the lecturer responding, 'does that make slavery ok then, if you treat your slaves well.' to which they went quiet.
The obvious implication behind such a question is that, 'no, of bloody course it is not ok.'

To people talking about 'n brown colour', yes this was a common usage of the time, brown animals were often called 'n' I remember at junior age, going on a trip with school and we were introduced to a brown pony called N* this was early 80's but even then I remember being a bit shocked and thinking ' that is not ok' and of course it wasn't and it isn't.

The thing is it has the boom effect. Which is needed. Going topical with time, for example Stephen Lawrence. One of the attackers said "what, what n...". It should absolutely be quoted whole. It was 1993 UK. It absolutely shows what the attacker was about with it's impact.

Quotes should be quoted whole to not lose anything. It's not ok to use the words, but if you are quoting, you should keep the authenticity so it can be correctly judged and put in a context.

If she was quoting a historical reference that used the word Cunt, I'm pretty sure she'd have self-censored.

Germaine Greer didn't on "Bladerdash and Piffle".

Anyway, I'll repeat: this programme is a repeat. Where was the outrage when it was first shown ?

Time to break out the Reginald D. Hunter this evening, I could do with a laugh ....

@helloareyouthere I remember this vividly too. My grandparents grew up in a very rural, non-multicultural part of Scotland and I don;t think they every came across anyone who wasn't white. That word use to describe dark brown clothing or other items was very common. I remember being aged about 11 in the early 80s trying to explain to my granny why it was really very inappropriate and she mustn't say it.

Times change.

It is unacceptable to use the n word, even as a quotation. It is deemed by the public to be the most offensive word (see Ofcom research).

There have been a number of recent cases of complaints being made against academics for reading out the word from a text in lectures. In at least one, the text was by a black author, in another the academic herself was black and the complaint was made by a white student. Some of these cases have resulted in disciplinary processes.

Not seen it, but I hope it was this context. I remember when I was doing a theology course, some of the trainee ministers were saying the bible said that slaves needed to be treated well and given a day off work, and the lecturer responding, 'does that make slavery ok then, if you treat your slaves well.' to which they went quiet.

Well the Bible not only doesn't condemn slavery (mysteriously it doesn't make a commandment) but it has some very prescriptive instructions on how to treat your slaves (with some rather unsettling dwelling on "male and female slaves" ...)

@DGRossetti

Not seen it, but I hope it was this context. I remember when I was doing a theology course, some of the trainee ministers were saying the bible said that slaves needed to be treated well and given a day off work, and the lecturer responding, 'does that make slavery ok then, if you treat your slaves well.' to which they went quiet.

Well the Bible not only doesn't condemn slavery (mysteriously it doesn't make a commandment) but it has some very prescriptive instructions on how to treat your slaves (with some rather unsettling dwelling on "male and female slaves" ...)

Bible in general is bit... Needs updating

The bible is a bit crap, bluntly. And that's before you start asking "which bible ?".

The only bit of the Bible that matters can fit on a bumper sticker.

Be nice to each other

We should try it one day.

People getting upset over a word in common use

It's not in common use. At least it's not with the people that I spend time with, if it's in common use with your peers then that suggests that you are spending time with the wrong sort of people.

I don't know anybody who wouldn't be concerned about knife crime if it was happening on their doorstep (and probably elsewhere but it doesn't get discussed here as it doesn't tend to happen).