Lucy Worsley and the N word

[BlackKite]

Lucy Worsley is getting a kicking on Twitter. She was doing a TV show about the American Civil War and quoted someone opposed to the emancipation of slaves, using the N word.

t.co/g76XVwQTjk?amp=1

On the show, it’s clear that it’s a quote and she briefly warns the viewer before uttering the word.

AIBU to think that in the context, historians should be able to use kind of language without giving offense?

All....Have no idea what is up.with my keyboard

I'm a secondary teacher and at my last London school (5 years ago) most students were black or asian. I found it awkward teaching TKAM and Of Mice and Men and reading the word out loud. Always gave an explanation about quoting and context etc and the students were okay with it. A former colleague of mine recently had students complain to the Head about her using the word when reading.. Really difficult situation; I think now I'd probably ask the class how they'd feel comfortable proceeding.

The GCSE syllabus doesn't include these anymore hence the teaching at year 9. Though I do agree it needs a revamp from the old dead white guys that the GCsE syllabus does have. (Not that Harper Lee was a guy)

I'm sorry for misreading that it was year 9 not GCSE. Though, by the way, I did say 'authors' not 'guys'. I know Harper Lee was female.

With the context and history elements that are taught along side these books do you feel they have no value in education?

I think very little has 'no value' in education. But I do think other texts might have more value and certainly more freshness.

Would you complain to the school if your child was being taught it?

No, but I'd hope they'd have a sensible discussion about saying the n-word out loud, and I'd also really hope they'd try to find something else on the syllabus, TBH. I just think those two particular books have been absolutely done to death, to the point at which it becomes ridiculous.

If it’s a quote, and she even warned before she said it, I don’t see the problem. It was common usage in the context of the times.

Btw, just to contextualise @herja's point about a lecturer having an article rejected (or recommended for revise and resubmit, rather) for using the word 'slaves' rather than 'enslaved persons' - this would be absolutely routine, not just in the context of terminology relating to race, but in all sorts of contexts. Revise and resubmit recommendations are all about nitty-gritty points and they are the opposite of someone throwing their hands up in horror and banning a word. I just mention it because it occurs to me that it could read that way if you don't know the process.

I love Lucy Worsley. I agree she could have skipped it or said n word personally. BUT why can't people be uncomfortable? Why does the slightest offense need such condemnation and outrage? Surely there is a base understanding the intention was not to offend?

The social media onslaught, followed by the mass shaming, forced groveling apology, the attacks on her livelihood, the attempts to obliterate her socially - and will any of it be enough? I feel like we are wading into very dangerous silencing territory.

Well, I doubt a lot of slave owners thought they were 'offending' anyone either. It's really awful, but when you look at attitudes at the time, some people were outraged and horrified by slavery; others seem to have genuinely believed slaves were making a fuss about nothing and were better off accepting their status in life.

I'd feel a bit wary about the idea that, so long as you don't mean any harm or offence, it's all fine.

I don't see what's wrong with expecting someone to hold their hand up and say they got something wrong. TBH I think if you can't hack occasionally having to say 'whoops, misjudged that badly,' you're not cut out to be public historian.

Soon the younger generation won't have a clue what the 'n' word is is nobody is allowed to say it when quoting people. Why is the n word considered worse than the p word for people from Pakistan/India? Why is certain African people calling all white people Mzungus or Maori referring to White New Zealanders Pakeha or Japanese people calling white people Gaijin not challenged? Also white people never refer to themselves as Gaijin/Mzungu etc All these words are othering

OP what is that link all about? it has nothing to do with Lucy Worsley
How can you possibly learn about the past without going to primary sources? If she warned people first, then anyone easily offended had the choice to mute/leave the room.

It's entirely different when we are talking about contemporary sources, everyone knows perfectly well NOW that racial slurs are not acceptable and there is no need to quote them, except maybe in a court case when it's necessary to be unambiguous about what has been said.
Similarly I think it's worth making the effort to say 'enslaved people' rather than 'slaves' when writing about slavery- but ludicrous to put that language into the mouths of contemporary people.

I don't see what's wrong with expecting someone to hold their hand up and say they got something wrong. TBH I think if you can't hack occasionally having to say 'whoops, misjudged that badly,'

That's not what people want these days though - pound of flesh is the order of the day.

@2Rebecca

Soon the younger generation won't have a clue what the 'n' word is is nobody is allowed to say it when quoting people. Why is the n word considered worse than the p word for people from Pakistan/India? Why is certain African people calling all white people Mzungus or Maori referring to White New Zealanders Pakeha or Japanese people calling white people Gaijin not challenged? Also white people never refer to themselves as Gaijin/Mzungu etc All these words are othering

Educate yourself. This is not only about othering. This is about enslavement. The legacy of slavery affects every black life today.

White New Zealander’s were not and are not racially disadvantaged because Maoris had a nasty name for them. Black Britons, African Americans and the African continent are impoverished because of the consequences of the use of the n word.

I wonder if Dr Lucy Worsley is getting some stick here because a lot of people are forgetting she is a highly qualified professional and are instead thinking she's a pretty face to front a serious subject ?

Especially since there was no complaint when the programme was originally shown last year.

[quote Waxonwaxoff0]@SchrodingersImmigrant no, the majority are though.[/quote]
Interesting. I am not aware that MN has ever asked me for information about my ethnic origin, sex, household income levels etc.

I get that there is a widespread view this is the demographic of the site.

This appears to be driven by the idea that lots of articulate, confident, and intelligent women post.

Therefore, we must all be white and middle class.

Or is there another credible basis for this view?

As a BAME I have no problem with people, white or otherwise, using the n-word when quoting an historical source. When talking about American slavery, for instance, it's highly inappropriate not to use it at times. You may as well call the slaves "unpaid migrant workers" because the word "slave" has such bad connotations.

I wonder if Dr Lucy Worsley is getting some stick here because a lot of people are forgetting she is a highly qualified professional and are instead thinking she's a pretty face to front a serious subject ?

Her professional expertise is in 16th/17th century English history. She’s not a specialist in American or African-American history or the history of slavery. If she were, I doubt she would have used that term on camera at all, let alone mildly prefaced with “a health warning”.

Never mind the N-word, can't we just ignore Twitter?

It's full of noisy, angry slebs who have nothing of value to add to public discourse and who have nothing in common with the average person.

@DGRossetti

I wonder if Dr Lucy Worsley is getting some stick here because a lot of people are forgetting she is a highly qualified professional and are instead thinking she's a pretty face to front a serious subject ?

Especially since there was no complaint when the programme was originally shown last year.

We are in hugely different times after Black Lives Matter. Had you not noticed?

If she used a Jewish slur she would be cancelled immediately.

Yet oddly N-word can be used no problem.

@Enormouscroc

It's not up to white people to conclude it's inoffensive and ok when "said in context". I watched it and felt uncomfortable when she said it. The quote could still have been said with the word missing. For the pp who mentioned the word in full above, I think your post is irrelevant and just an excuse for you to use the word.

No it's not. That is certainly true.

Is it possible to know who the outraged on Twitter are? If it turns out to be mainly white people then why is it up to them to decide that quoting with the word is wrong?

If she used a Jewish slur she would be cancelled immediately. Yet oddly N-word can be used no problem.

What kind of racist nonsense is this?

If she used a Jewish slur she would be cancelled immediately.

??? She wasn't "using" a sluras in, actually saying it with intentshe was describing its historical context. Of course she could do the same with a Jewish slur--i.e. using it to describe the abusive language used by some people during history:

"During the anti-Jewish riots of 1753, windows of Jewish homes and businesses were smashed, and the words 'Yids' painted on their walls" etc. etc.

(I am making that up as an example, although I think there actually were anti Jewish riots in London around that time, as a result of the act of Parliament which gave Jews the right to nationalize after seven years in England).

I remember years ago on MN there was a sensible discussion about the 'N word', it's origins, whether it should be removed from children's nursery rhyme books etc.

Bullshit, those threads are never “sensible” they are just excuses for the Mumsnet branch of the KKK to engage in dog whistle and covert racism.

There are plenty of posters here who really enjoy “innocently” sliding the N word into conversation whenever a black poster starts objecting to racism. It happened in one of the Meghan Markle threads recently, a poster identified themselves as black and made a comment about racism and two minutes later another poster had found a way to slip the “N***R” into the thread written in full.

Mumsnet has a massive problem with racism and there are plenty of posters who constantly use covert racism and insidious tactics to deny, dismiss and downplay anti-black racism, while using whataboutery and other bad faith tactics to paint white people as the victims.

Look at the BLM protests. The threads about the protests were full of outrage about how awful and selfish the “rioting thugs” were and full of coded racist language. By contrast threads about the rival anti-BML protest (which really did turn into a riot, and which had protestors literally doing Nazi salutes) were full of posters defending them - DEFENDING NAZIS - and claiming why censorship was an attack on free speech. The difference between the two threads was truly shocking.

Look at this thread. It’s supposed to be about the word used in a historical context, yet almost immediately it was detailed by posters butthurt that they’re not allowed to use the N word, and racist nonsense claiming antisemitism isn’t acceptable when the recent Wiley controversy and all the stuff about Corbyn in the run up to the election shows that actually antisemitism is far more socially acceptable than anti-black racism, and that white supremacy is trying to pit black people and Jewish people (ignoring black Jews) against each other in order to weaponise racial hate.

@katy1213

Ridiculous not to allow it in the context of historical discussion - and equally ridiculous to feel the need to warn in advance. It's a kind of virtue-signalling to flag up that you wouldn't use the word in conversation .. well, nobody sensible thought you would. Do people really sit in university seminars coyly discussing the n-word?

Agree entirely, and funnily enough was having a discusion about this very matter the other day (not having seen the Lucy Worsley programme).

It seems ridiculous not to use the word you are discussing when the topic of discussion is the merits/former usage, etc. of the word.

My feeling is that no word is, in and of itself - i.e. out of context, offensive; it's a collection of letters. Presumably it's written in full in the dictionary.

If you called someone an anus that would be offensive, but it would be patently ridiculous if they talked about "the a-word" during medical procedures. (I appreciate the "n-word" has historical connotations that other "bad words" don't.)

We are in hugely different times after Black Lives Matter. Had you not noticed?

For me they've always mattered.

Can's speak for anyone else.