PC Harper killers sentenced

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

16 year and 13 year sentences.

I doubt they would have got much more if the murder charge had been successful.

I am glad to see the judge wasn’t convinced by their arguments.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46544144

There is a difference between excusing behaviour (which no one is doing) and understanding the forces behind it. Are you not concerned whether anything could have been done to have directed these young men on to a better path.

The 'traveller' bit isn't the issue no matter how much you want it to be, it's the prolonged torture that is the issue. You do what they did and you know the person will die

I think "prolonged torture" is a bit OTT, tbh. I've no doubt it seemed like an eternity to poor PC Harper until he lost consciousness, but they didn't tie him to the car with the tow strap. No-one knows at what point (if any) they realised that he'd trapped his foot in it and wasn't just hanging on. Given that 2 of the 3 had learning difficulties, it's entirely possible that they never grasped that. In the heat of the moment, no-one can be certain that they "knew" anything of the sort.

I'm not disputing that they were a thoroughly bad lot who were happy to go on the rob and carry weapons. The carrying of weapons while committing crime is a pretty good indicator that they were plainly prepared to use the threat of violence, at the very least.

But it's a huge leap from that to knowing, beyond reasonable doubt, that they set out with the intention of killing or seriously harming someone.

But it's a huge leap from that to knowing, beyond reasonable doubt, that they set out with the intention of killing or seriously harming someone.

You're wasting your breath, LakieLadie, and ChazsBrilliantAttitude. PPs want to see some teenagers strung up, and that's the end of it.

As I remember it they tried something in the States a couple of decades ago called 'three strikes and out'

And it led to a man being imprisoned for life for stealing a slice of pizza, after being law-abiding for many years.

Not a model I'd want to see here, tbh.

Face it nothing, up to and including the death sentence, will take that away. We have to have sentences that relate to the crime

Agree, where we disagree is that released after ten years in no way fits the crime.
& they will be released after the min term served, which is for the 16 year sentence, 10y and 8 months
I have something worth living for in society, so yes, it would be awful, then again i don't nick quads or drag people to their death either. Many of these people do not, 10 years inside is, as a well known comedy show used to say, is just an occupational hazard.

Are you not concerned whether anything could have been done to have directed these young men on to a better path

As i said earlier, i'm all for early years intervention, its vital if we are to break the cycles of behavior, not just in these sorts of extreme acts of violence but in low aspiration and attainment, leading to shite life chances too.

However, right now, these people are well beyond that.

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

There is a difference between excusing behaviour (which no one is doing) and understanding the forces behind it. Are you not concerned whether anything could have been done to have directed these young men on to a better path.

What do you think their family and friends would suggest? Serious question.

I wouldnt mind a variation on the 3 strikes and your out policy. How about on the 3rd strike you are given the maximum sentence commensurate with the crime you've just committed?

I fear you're right, @thedancingbear. It's like some weird bloodlust.

There are probably people who think that the fucked-up children who killed James Bulger should have been "strung up" as well.

It's a desire for revenge, that's all, and has no place in any judicial system.

^And it led to a man being imprisoned for life for stealing a slice of pizza, after being law-abiding for many years.

Not a model I'd want to see here, tbh.^

I'm pretty sure it was a hot dog lakieLady but I am happy to be corrected :)

How about on the 3rd strike you are given the maximum sentence commensurate with the crime you've just committed?

If you're already on your second strike, and you're thinking of murdering someone, best make it a belter, eh?

'Are you not concerned whether anything could have been done to have directed these young men on to a better path.'

I'm puzzled tbh, we have been told repeatedly their culture and background isn't relevant yet now you're saying it is. So tell me, how on earth could they have been put on a 'better path'?! Maybe school would have helped, good luck with that.

Of course I do wish the local police had the powers to control this well known community with force to prevent events that's led to PC Harper's death.

'PPs want to see some teenagers strung up, and that's the end of it.'

Oh Dancingbear for the trillionth time no one wants them 'strung up'. Just justice. Your excuses about the poor lambs upbringings are not convincing sorry.

'There are probably people who think that the fucked-up children who killed James Bulger should have been "strung up" as well.'

Not 'strung up' no. Harsher sentences. 8 years for the kidnap, torture and murder of a child is not enough no matter how 'fucked up' they are.

they will be released after the min term served, which is for the 16 year sentence, 10y and 8 months

You don't know that. That is the minimum they will serve, and they will only be released that early if the probation service recommends early release and if the parole board agrees.

If the younger 2 serve the full sentence, they will have spent almost half their lives in prison by the time they are released.

Not 'strung up' no. Harsher sentences. 8 years for the kidnap, torture and murder of a child is not enough no matter how 'fucked up' they are.

Do you honestly think the deterrent effect of tougher sentencing would have stopped two 11-year olds with learning difficulties and completely fucked up family backgrounds doing what they did. Do you honestly think they thought 'I could get 8 years inside for this; if it was more like 15 I wouldn't bother but as it goes it's worth the risk'?

If no, what would you be looking to achieve by locking them up for longer, except vengance?

They didn't get very long given the nature of the crime, and since release they have been in and out of prison more times than I am in and out of my downstairs toilet.

I was under the impression it was only one who had re offended. And obviously by 'only' I mean one, not 'not important'.

Okay, just so we're clear, you're happy with a judicial system that doesn't take into account things like the offender's age, and whether they have learning difficulties?

Er, at the risk of sounding obsessed, taking age into account went out the window with the James Bulger case. Doli Incapx was removed from English law.

taking age into account went out the window with the James Bulger case. Doli Incapx was removed from English law.

My understanding is that Doli Incapx only bore on findings of guilt and innocence. I believe the age of offenders can still be taken into account in sentencing.

Not 'strung up' no. Harsher sentences. 8 years for the kidnap, torture and murder of a child is not enough no matter how 'fucked up' they are.

I'm glad to see you don't advocate the return of the death penalty. However a couple of posters have talked about hanging on this thread, and someone suggested execution by pushing people off tall structures. You know, like ISIS do.

The Bulger case is completely different, they were children, just as Mary Bell was.
These are men, get married, own property, join the army, one old enough to vote, they know the difference between right and wrong.

The apologists for their behavior is quite sickening, you wouldn't have this sort of conversation with the victim's family, so you have it away from them, which is cowardly, if you really had the courage of your convictions, you'd look Mrs Harper in the eye and tell her what you've told us all on here... but you wouldn't.

What do you really think they will do when released? and if they go onto to murder someone else (not unknown) what would you say to the victims family? Soz! my bad!

Who are apologists for their behaviour? Every single person on this thread has condemned what happened. Stop conflating accepting that the jury didn’t convict them of murder so they can to sentenced for murder with some sort of implied minimisation of what they have done.

The prosecution could not make a murder charge stick.

cannot

No one really said anything about stringing them up, unless you’re talking about outraged mail online readers comments.
It’s not possible since we don’t even hang people hear anymore. So a pointless comment.
Prison isn’t really a deterrent to some people it’s just part of life.
Not every traveler is a criminal or a murderer so I disagree that they were fucked the day they were born.

The best thing to do with thugs with no regard for human life, is to keep them safe and secure in custody. For a very long time in this case.In custody they should be treat fairly and have their human rights honoured.

That way society is protected from them and we as a society are protecting them too,by stopping them from committing further unnecessary deaths.

The apologists for their behavior is quite sickening, you wouldn't have this sort of conversation with the victim's family, so you have it away from them, which is cowardly, if you really had the courage of your convictions, you'd look Mrs Harper in the eye and tell her what you've told us all on here... but you wouldn't.

How exactly would this work? Do the posters you're criticising know Mrs Harper in person, or do you have some kind of power to summon her?

@LakieLady

I fear you're right, *@thedancingbear*. It's like some weird bloodlust.

There are probably people who think that the fucked-up children who killed James Bulger should have been "strung up" as well.

It's a desire for revenge, that's all, and has no place in any judicial system.

Well if they had been removed from the human race then one in particular wouldn't have been able to reoffend (child related) and terrorise their new local neighborhoods... Ask their new victims what they think of that policy. They're hardly contributing to society.

Not 'strung up' no. Harsher sentences. 8 years for the kidnap, torture and murder of a child is not enough no matter how 'fucked up' they are.

See, you're saying you don't want people 'strung up' and I agree with you on that point.

But you've got:

Constancesalinger in favour of executing 11-year olds

jasjas1973 in favour of executing people by pushing them off tall structures, like Isis do.

I've been accused of being 'disgusting' and 'sick' on this thread for wanting a balanced discussion. But this is the kind of shit we are up against unfortunately.

@jasjas1973

The Bulger case is completely different, they were children, just as Mary Bell was. These are men, get married, own property, join the army, one old enough to vote, they know the difference between right and wrong.

The apologists for their behavior is quite sickening, you wouldn't have this sort of conversation with the victim's family, so you have it away from them, which is cowardly, if you really had the courage of your convictions, you'd look Mrs Harper in the eye and tell her what you've told us all on here... but you wouldn't.

What do you really think they will do when released? and if they go onto to murder someone else (not unknown) what would you say to the victims family? Soz! my bad!

Can you point out one - just one - post on here from an apologist?

Some of these comments are disgusting. There's a huge difference between understanding and explaining how the law works and being apologists for these scumbags
To suggest otherwise is disingenuous

& they will be released after the min term served, which is for the 16 year sentence, 10y and 8 months

Why on earth do people think early release is automatic? It really isn't. No-one knows that these people will be released once they've served the minimum term: they will have to satisfy a parole board that they are fit to be released. I strongly suspect that all three will struggle to do that.