PC Harper killers sentenced

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

16 year and 13 year sentences.

I doubt they would have got much more if the murder charge had been successful.

I am glad to see the judge wasn’t convinced by their arguments.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46544144

I think some of the other semi-literate and occasionally racist ramblings on this thread help show why it's so difficult for there to be a balanced public discourse about criminal justice

Yep such a condescending attitude doesn't really help though does it?

I agree with other PPs. Once they knew he was there and continued driving it was murder.

'I think your comments illuminate that there are various distortions in how we perceive different kinds of crime, based on the nature of the offence, various historical factors, and frankly who the perpetrators are.'

Fascinating. There are indeed various distortions on how we perceive different kinds of crime based 'on the nature of the offence'. The horrific nature of the offence in this case. I don't care if its a 'white collar worker' or a career criminal, I would expect a jury to see there may not have initially been intent but that intent became clear as the situation changed.

Once they knew he was there and continued driving it was murder.

I think that's right. However the jury wasn't sure beyond reasonable doubt that they did know he was there, and that's why the conviction was for manslaughter.

The car was a SEAT Toledo, a low powered vehicle, they knew they were dragging one of the Police officers
Despite trying to get away from the Police, they could only average 42mph for the 90 sec journey, doubtless because the car was being slowed significantly..

Quite unbelievable people can defend this, the charge & the sentence.

Perhaps they should have thought about that.

This is a wilful misreading of the point I was making about what it is like to spend 10 years in prison, Nowhere did I suggest that anyone should feel sorry for the defendants. I was simply pointing out that the depiction of 10 years in prison as something easy and equivalent to a gentle slap on the wrist just doesn't bear any sort of examination. If anyone is in any doubt about this, they should give it a try for themselves.

This sort of misrepresentation is depressingly typical of the hang 'em and flog 'em types on here. If you can't disagree with someone without misrepresenting what they say, you need to think about whether your arguments really are valid ones.

@gypsywater

Drink drivers dont tend to deliberately torture their victims to death, however

The jury found that the evidence didn't demonstrate this to the requisite standard.

[quote gypsywater]@thedancingbear
Attention seeking, pious apologism is never "reasoned debate"[/quote]
Slinging unjustified insults isn't "reasoned debate" either.

I was simply pointing out that the depiction of 10 years in prison as something easy and equivalent to a gentle slap on the wrist just doesn't bear any sort of examination. If anyone is in any doubt about this, they should give it a try for themselves

Verses a lifetime of grief, pain and loss that is taken to the grave?

Yes very hard.

10 years for people who have such scant regard for others and their own lives isn't such a big deal.

This sort of misrepresentation is depressingly typical of the hang 'em and flog 'em types on here

But its all ok for you to throw around the insults.

@Pobblebonk
Surely we all know that a not guilty verdict does not equate neatly to innocence?

10 years for people who have such scant regard for others and their own lives isn't such a big deal

Verses a lifetime of grief, pain and loss that is taken to the grave?

Face it nothing, up to and including the death sentence, will take that away. We have to have sentences that relate to the crime. Otherwise killing someone who has no-one to grieve them would be regarded as deserving of a light sentence, which plainly would be completely wrong.

If you don't think time in prison is a big deal, you really should try it for yourself. Plus, as pointed out more than once, the likelihood that these defendants will be out in ten years is really very small indeed.

[quote gypsywater]@Pobblebonk
Surely we all know that a not guilty verdict does not equate neatly to innocence?[/quote]
Has anyone suggested it does?

@jasjas1973

This sort of misrepresentation is depressingly typical of the hang 'em and flog 'em types on here

But its all ok for you to throw around the insults.

It wasn't an insult, it was a statement of fact.

Ok well in that case, so is this.....

Attention seeking, pious apologist is never "reasoned debate"

@jasjas1973

Ok well in that case, so is this.....

Attention seeking, pious apologist is never "reasoned debate"

Oh good, you're agreeing with me.

@thedancingbear I agree wholeheartedly with your points.

As someone who is currently supporting someone going through a false accusation of criminal act (non-violent) which is awaiting cps decision, I am bloody glad our laws require points to prove in legislation because if it were up to “feelings” my friend would be in prison now. Luckily, evidence is more important in our judicial system. People often think of victims of crime - it makes sense - but this experience of mine has shown how easy (!) it is to find yourself at the wrong end of a police conversation when you really haven’t done anything wrong. And it really seemingly doesn’t take very much at all to get there. Wrong place, wrong time and a good deed never goes unpunished are our mantras at the moment. But this is by the by

In this case, the points to prove were not met with sufficiency to be beyond reasonable doubt. That means almost certain. Through evidence. Not feeling. It is not apologist to recognise that our judicial system requires this.

It’s entirely likely or possible, that these thugs drove knowing that poor soul Andrew Harper was stuck. Yet they continued, with inevitable consequences. Any decent human would draw the line at actually killing someone, when it all started over a fucking quad bike being nicked.
I don’t really care whether they were travellers or not.
The crucial factor is they denied knowing he was there and their defence lawyers know that this can’t be proven. So manslaughter it is.
I fee very sorry for Andrew Harper’s family.
I hear they are trying to appeal their sentences, I’ve no idea if they will be successful or not.
Those thugs laughed and joked with each other during the trial and that must have caused even more pain for the family.

Just to add that they will likely only be in their early 30s when they’re released so they still have their whole horrible lives ahead of them.

Just to add that they will likely only be in their early 30s when they’re released so they still have their whole horrible lives ahead of them.

No, they'll have about half their lives left, and their best years will have been spent inside. Male traveller average life expectancy is in the mid-sixties.

What these kids/men did was awful, but they were fucked from the day they were born.

Why is being disgusted at what these 3 criminals did racism? Why is being outraged and appalled at their and their families behaviour racism?

The anger and disgust is nothing to do with them being travellers (something that isn't automatically known until someone brings it up) and everything to do with what they have done

If people behave badly then others will think badly of them. I wish pp would stop trying to make this a racism issue, it's not. It's a criminal justice issue so please stop trying to minimise or obfuscate the issue. An innocent man was killed by career criminals and there is a debate as to what would constitute justice for him and his family.

Also I read the repeat drink driving thread and at no point did the offenders mother try to excuse his behaviour. She was utterly ashamed of her child. She certainly wasn't intending on obstructing the criminal investigation, jeer in the courtroom or intimidating the jury like these criminals families did. Open any MN thread talking about drink driving or repeated drink driving and you will see that the overwhelming majority have zero tolerance for this sort of criminally reckless behaviour (and rightly so!)

'What these kids/men did was awful, but they were fucked from the day they were born.'

That's a bit racist suggesting people of their ethnicity are 'fucked from the day they were born'. Many travellers aren't thugs you know.

'No, they'll have about half their lives left, and their best years will have been spent inside'

Their best years?? Boo fucking hoo. I'm sure they'll manage to squeeze in plenty of criminal behaviour from the grand old age of 30 on over..

The deleted comments on this thread have strayed into racism - that is why they are deleted.

This specific family have scant regard for the law and other people. That only tells us something about this family. It is not OK to extrapolate to any wider group. Some posters appeared to be doing that.

@GetOffYourHighHorse
You are the only one mentioning ethnicity.

Being born into a family that has little regard for the law, education or social norms is a problem whatever your ethnicity.

[quote ChazsBrilliantAttitude]@GetOffYourHighHorse
You are the only one mentioning ethnicity.

Being born into a family that has little regard for the law, education or social norms is a problem whatever your ethnicity.[/quote]
No, Dancing Bear keeps bringing it up. Tbh to say they were 'fucked from the day they were born' sounds yet again as if the poster is suggesting it wasn't their fault. A victim of their upbringing perhaps.

Many people have deprived upbringings and do not go on to torture and kill people.