To think this customer is unreasonable?

[WhataBelta]

DH and I own a business selling a product. As with lots of branded products, it has our logo on it. These are products that take a lot of time and effort to make and as such, can be quite expensive.

As we offer free personalisations, we ask customers to leave notes with any requests when they checkout on our website.

A customer ordered a large number and left a note to say they didn't want any engraving. No problem.

We sent them out with just the logo on and no personalisation.

The customer has now come back and said he didn't want the logo on as per his no engraving request and wants us to redo them or refund.

AIBU to think you can't expect a brand to take their logo off products for you?! I would never order from a brand and expect them to send me something blank without their logo/name on if it's obvious they put it on everything.

Are we unreasonable to say no? It makes me wonder why, perhaps they wanted to sell them on as their own or something similar. They say it's because they are gifts and they want them blank but I kind of think well tough, you've bought a very clearly branded product

How would you expect a customer to specify no logo? Why would you think a customer should differentiate between an engraved logo and other engraving?

@pepperycinnamon

Since when was a company logo considered personalisation or engraving

When it's engraved onto the product, obviously. He asked for no engraving.

But the OP has already said the logo is stamped into the product when it's being made. It's not added after the product is finished.

I just don't understand how anyone can reasonably think that it's engraved when the logo being stamped is a step completed as part of making the item.

@pepperycinnamon

Since when was a company logo considered personalisation or engraving

When it's engraved onto the product, obviously. He asked for no engraving.

Have you read the thread? The logo isn’t engraved. It’s stamped. He asked for no engraving, not no logo. And asking for it to be unbranded was an unreasonable request anyway.

The logo was NOT engraved on to the product. It was stamped in prior to hardening/finishing the product, as with all products OP sells. Personnalisations are NOT engraved on to the product at all, according to OP, so he had no more reason to expect his wishes to be fulfilled than you could expect by asking Nike not to put their tick onto some trainers when you're ordering them. You can't just tell the seller to do anything you want and expect your desires to be met no questions asked.

If he’s just outside of the refund period and they are going to be hard to resell leaving you out of pocket I personally would refuse explaining that they had been made to order are a relatively high value item that you are now unable to personalise making them harder to resell. To expect you to have sent them without a logo on is madness.

@WhatCFeryIsThis

I forgot to mention, these rules exist as customers aren't able to see the items before they commit to buying them. In this case, the customer could easily argue that he wouldn't have bought them had he seen the logo stamp, so there's absolutely no good that could come from trying to get around the distance selling policies sadly.

"These rules" (as noted, the Consumer Contracts Regulations) only apply when the customer is a retail consumer - a Joe Soap off the street. They don't cover the provision of goods and services between companies.

It's a well established legal principle (gender excepted) than you don't get to sell an apple as an orange by calling it an orange. Which means that businesses can't evade their obligations under the CCR by pretending they "only sell to to businesses". But the reverse is true. A business customer can't claim consumer protection either. If a final determination is needed, then you need to "go to law" as the nursery rhyme goes.

A lot of the problems here seem to stem from the lack of clarity in the OPs initial T&Cs.

There's an interesting legal question about whether supplying the goods as the OP did would count as "personalised" even in the absence of engraving. Because if they did, the customers position is "suck it up". However that sort of legal flim-flammery needs deep pockets.

@BuggerOffAndGoodDayToYou

Actually it doesn't as it happens!

I prefer the streamlined look and my car is modified and de-badged! It does make the insurance a little tricky at times.

It's very easy to remove the stick on model badges with dental floss. The bolted in ones are rather more tricky

Hence a disclaimer that the images are not definitive, but indicative ....

I'm totally in agreement with you that it's important to have everything covered in the T&Cs @ProfessorSlocombe but if it was a genuine misunderstanding because the photos are unclear, a disclaimer wouldn't have stopped the mistake, only given legal protection. Unhappy customers are bad for business and returns cost money. It makes good business sense to have clarity and prevent future mistakes.

There could be an innocuous reason behind wanting a blank whateveritis @WhataBelta. The client might have wanted them blank so they could be engraved/printed with a complex design rather than a stamp if they are corporate gifts and the logo might spoil the design. Have you researched the client? Is it likely that they are competitor wanting to pass them off as their own work or could they be genuine? It's worth researching the company otherwise you might be doing yourself out of £1300 and more in future business if your hunch is wrong. There might be a compromise eg moving the logo.

@Mydogisthebestest

X post with you.

I would refund and not do them without the logo.

And change your ts and cs to make it clear that your logo is on every item.

This. It's like asking someone to take a trade mark off. They return. You refund. The end.

I think the buyer was intending to sell it as their own work. As they've now realised they can't pass it off as their own, they've got arsey with you about it.

It might be possible for you to resell it without the engraving, but that would be your decision and any refund would be as a goodwill gesture. It doesn't sound as though the customer is engendering much of that, though.

If you've got their money and it can't be clawed back through PayPal, for example, it's up to you - but there is a chance that if you were to receive them back, they'd be damaged/scratched and not resellable.

Can you afford to take that chance?

@WhatCFeryIsThis

How do posters suggest OP refuses a refund though? That doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense. Not only has he gone beyond the time of a refund he has come back with some nonsense about not expecting any engraving at all. As countless others have said, on a handmade item made on a piece by piece basis , I think that's the right term, I would expect a company logo on there. Why any business would send out any items at all with no identifying logo on them is beyond me. Unless it was a completely generic item that could be bought in countless other shops. He is trying his luck.

I'm totally in agreement with you that it's important to have everything covered in the T&Cs @ProfessorSlocombe but if it was a genuine misunderstanding because the photos are unclear, a disclaimer wouldn't have stopped the mistake, only given legal protection. Unhappy customers are bad for business and returns cost money. It makes good business sense to have clarity and prevent future mistakes.

There are two issues being discussed here ... the legalities and the commercial realities.

I know good businessmen sometimes look at a loss as cheap investment in getting rid of a customer who will never actually create a profit. In a holiday job years ago, a rather troublesome customer came to collect his repaired instrument which should have been £25. However, when they looked in their wallet they "only had £20 ...". To my amazement the owner cheerily said "oh, don't worry, drop the £5 when you are next passing".

After they'd gone, I couldn't help but say "You do realise you'll never see them again ?", to which the owner said "Yes, not bad for £5."

I can see both sides to this. I don't like logos on things, it spoils them.
Both of you should have checked what not engraving meant.
In future make sure your customers know exactly what they are getting.
I'd refund or exchange unless you want a bad review on your website. Put it down to experience.

I would say that as a good will gesture you will refund when he returns the goods. Then add that you your brand logo identifies your products as being of top quality and because of this you do not supply unbranded products

But surely if you don't like products with logos on, then you don't buy branded products. Certainly not ones which are shown as being branded with logos on in the publicity photos?

I hate wearing 'branded' trainers, so I purposefully choose to buy from sites other than Nike, Adidas etc. I wouldn't ask them to sell me trainers without their logo on, it's their advertising material. It's like asking them not to advertise anywhere I might see!

I am suprised that anyone thinks that it's a normal or standard thing to think any company would remove their logo on any item whatsoever.

You shouldn't have to change any wording for people to understand that a logo is a part of what you are buying and is non negotiable.

A companies logo or name is part of their advertising on their products, standard, it makes for example your product visably different to a cheaper, inferior one.

I think you would be fair to offer him a partial refund and explain that is because now they cannot be personalised for anyone else due to the process they underwent to complete them. Maybe 80/90% of the price he paid but he needs to return them at his own expense first.

So, the he is too late to cancel the order, he's too late to return the order and the goods are not faulty.

Given all the info OP has given, she is perfectly within her rights to refuse to do anythng!

He can only rely on the "they don't look like they were supposed to" and as all of OPs marketing includes their die stamped logo then he hasn't got a leg to stand on there either!

Sod him.

Make a small change to your product descriptor and move on!

If he starts any legal proceedings, from a letter before action on, just go to the Which and gov.uk sites and quote him the law!

I would kindly explain that you can’t offer that. But you’re happy to refund if he’d like to return the product. Good luck in your search type thing.

I’ve read all your replies

He’s wanting £1300 worth of stuff for free

Refuse the refund till the product is back.

I am surprised that anyone thinks that it's a normal or standard thing to think any company would remove their logo on any item whatsoever.

Totally everyday if a business is selling to a business. You'd be amazed at what you have in your house with one brand on that was merely bought in and rebadged.

He's a CF and unlikely to purchase again, especially since your products will only be sold logo-ed.

I'd politely point out that of course the products are logo-ed, just like any other branded item in the world, and that's clear in all the pictures of your products. (Right?)

He's outside the return time and the products aren't defective. (He just wanted to pass them on as his own.) I'd decline to take them back.

To avoid a shitty review, or at least to be able to give a good reply, I'd recommend you refund
BUT only after you have received all the items back - otherwise he'll just sell them on and pocket the refund

However, whatever you do, immediately update your t&c to say prominantly that all your products will have your logo, even those without any other engraving
This will help avoid other idiots / chancers

@ProfessorSlocombe

I am surprised that anyone thinks that it's a normal or standard thing to think any company would remove their logo on any item whatsoever.

Totally everyday if a business is selling to a business. You'd be amazed at what you have in your house with one brand on that was merely bought in and rebadged.

The trouble is, here, we don’t know if CF is a business or not.

Anyway, even with consumers, personalised items fall outwith the normal rules on refunds ie customer can only get a refund if the item is faulty

www.gov.uk/accepting-returns-and-giving-refunds

The trouble is, here, we don’t know if CF is a business or not.

That's less important than the fact they appear to be acting suspiciously like a business.

One thing English contract law has become very good at, is applying the duck test. Just ask anyone who's had a run in with HMRC.

All of which being said may require a court to make a final determination. And that costs money. Which needs to be weighed against the £1,300 total mentioned so far.

For what it's worth, possession being the main point in law it seems the OP has the customers money and is currently not out of pocket. Which does hint that the best course of action is to politely refuse the customers request, and leave the ball in their court. Because it would be the customer that would need to start any legal action not the OP. But without having the full facts, that's not a decision that could be made here. Just an observation on my part