To ask why my colleague has been off sick for weeks and is on the beach?

[waitandseee]

My colleague has had nearly a month off sick leave, yet on facebook, there are photos of her on the beach, and on days out at cafe's. She is paddling in the sea, looking happy and very healthy. Am I being unreasonable to ask why this being allowed by management?

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• * Edited by MNHQ ** Hi all, and thanks to all those who have replied so far. It looks like the OP has left the site and won't be back to update the thread. We'll let the thread run as it's an interesting discussion. ===========================

Twenty years ago, a bereavement attracted the obligatory 5 days paid compassionate leave. Now, employees take that and then go off sick for months. Mum or dad at 85 dying is very sad but it is the circle of life. We are creating a generation of workers who think every one of life’s vicissitudes is a crisis worthy of 6 months off with pay.

I am trained to the highest level in employment law (was previously in practice in London for many years). I have worked since the late 90s and have seen the seismic change in attitudes to sickness. It’s this thread, and the lazy, entitled attitudes in it, which lead people to think it’s ok to pull a paid sicky. It’s not. People have genuinely taken time off work a cold and a broken toenail (couldn’t get a shoe on apoarehtjy). When you go to work with a broken ankle, a cold, or after your fifth miscarriage/marriage has broken down/dad died, you resent those who can’t tolerate a thing without pulling the sick card. It is devastating for the rest of the workforce: it encourages some to follow suit and others to resent the employer for allowing such inequality: why should I sit here working my ass off when Jenny is on a beach with GP ordered sunbathing?

Luckily the economy is such that employers will retain the good employees and bin off the chaff. You’ve been warned people, the gravy train is about to stop.

YABVVU

I was recently on sick leave due to depression. If it hadn't been lockdown I probably would've been doing those same things, because it would've helped my mental health.

Also it's absolutely none of your business.

When you go to work with a broken ankle, a cold, or after your fifth miscarriage/marriage has broken down/dad died, you resent those who can’t tolerate a thing without pulling the sick card

Unfortunately, not everyone is as robotic as you clearly are.

And again, a broken ankle or a cold is no where near the same as a fifth miscarriage or family death FFS. Stop putting trivial things in the same list as really big, emotionally damaging things. It just makes you look like a twat.

Only on MN do people say its none of your business. There are an awful lot of skivvers around now. Dont get me started on government depts allowing people to work at home. Lazy so and so's. I work and need to contact them extensively. They are hiding behind their emails and just wont take phone calls.

This is a gross generalisation of people who are WFH. My DH is doing this, and I can tell you that he really is working. He's also had to do most of the childcare, as I've been struggling with long-term COVID symptoms. He's also had to cope with his line manager resigning and having to run the department as well as doing his own work.

He hasn't had a day off sick in over 5 years, though he's sadly showing signs of stress. He also has asthma so is potentially vulnerable to COVID himself (thankfully he didn't catch it from me).

I do agree, though, that time off sick can't carry on indefinitely; there will come a time if you're on long-term sick when you have to admit that you can't do your job. I have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and PTSD, and I'm therefore not able to work.

However, in this case, it's only been a month and you don't know the actual circumstances. Judging on the basis of a Facebook post is very judgemental and unkind. I'm capable of going out with my DH and our DDs and looking as if I don't have a care in the world, but even doing a food shop leaves me exhausted.

HR is Human Resources. People are an expensive resiurce. Valuable yes. But not if they are not there for months on end. They then have no value at all. They are contributing nothing. Many companies work successfully due to team working and supporting each other to reach a common goal. Absent members for months or repeated absences destroys this which is why most companies manage absences.

You might not like the idea that companies spend huge amounts on their staff but value and expense are not the same thing. Again a bit of business acumen and training tells you this and any successful business recognises this. No company is going to ignore repeated or lengthy illness which they don’t believe to be genuine.

I agree OP

So many people off work with "work related stress or work related depression" - they should just quit if their jobs makes them feel that way as the job isn't going to change.

I'd be annoyed seeing them live it up on the beach too

I actually know someone who was sacked as they were signed off after an operation and kept getting it extended until their football team got promoted and they were seen on TV jumping over the stands to invade the football pitch at the end 🤣

It's quite worrying really that someone doesn't seem to understand that people are different and cope with things differently.

Saying 'well I was able to come to work after X Y or Z so why can't that person' is so ignorant. Maybe worked helped you? It doesn't mean it will for everyone.

If someone is off all the time with broken toe nails and colds then they are obviously taking the piss and management should deal with that appropriately. Putting that in the same league as a woman who's miscarried who you think should just come into work or she's lazy is fucking disgusting.

No company is going to ignore repeated or lengthy illness which they don’t believe to be genuine

No but we don't know why this woman is off or how often she has been off in the past. For all you know she may not have had a day off sick in 5 years and have a very genuine reason now.

So many people off work with "work related stress or work related depression" - they should just quit if their jobs makes them feel that way as the job isn't going to change

I'm not saying everyone who is off with this isn't taking the piss, I'm sure people do but I have worked in some appallingly ran companies where a lot of staff were off with work related stress because they were completely overworked, burned out and the company refused to make the changes it needed to make to create a better, smoother workplace, instead expecting staff to pick up the pieces of their poor management.

Why is the onus never on the employer to actually change things if multiple of their staff are having to be signed off sick with work related stress? Why is it never said 'well I wonder why that is actually, maybe it's just a really poorly ran company'. No, it's lazy employees obviously.

In think some employers need to manage the very long term sick better. I've seen people off with stress etc who have no intention whatsoever of returning to the role but who are on leave for up to a year before they actually go. If the job is such that you can't manage it for that length of time, then you are unfortunately unsuitable for it and need to be honest about it and move on.

However, for a usually valued md reliable member of staff to take a few weeks to come back strong is absolutely reasonable. You don't actually need to be very ill to need six weeks off to recuperate, whether it's a mental or a physical illness.

@My0My
I’ve had a ‘bit of training’ myself but am not a robot - thankfully. I can combine my training with common sense, empathy and compassion and the ability to appreciate that different people handle things in different ways. It’s done mr no harm so far. Outside of official education ,I learnt a lot from my grandparents and uncles who many people in the U.K. will know as pretty successful people.

@My0My

HR is Human Resources. People are an expensive resiurce. Valuable yes. But not if they are not there for months on end. They then have no value at all. They are contributing nothing. Many companies work successfully due to team working and supporting each other to reach a common goal. Absent members for months or repeated absences destroys this which is why most companies manage absences.

You might not like the idea that companies spend huge amounts on their staff but value and expense are not the same thing. Again a bit of business acumen and training tells you this and any successful business recognises this. No company is going to ignore repeated or lengthy illness which they don’t believe to be genuine.

Again, as per my earlier post on the previous page, these views are why HR is almost universally disparaged at the major UK firms I have worked for.

It doesn't matter how much people call themselves "business partners", this kind of attitude as a starting premise is depressing.

It’s not as if you are appreciated or get any thanks if you do stagger in with a temperature or are so depressed you can’t think straight!

Of course there are people who swing the lead and take time off for next to nothing. There always have been and always will be. Likewise there are those who risk their health and wellbeing because they can't even contemplate missing a day of work.

But someone's Facebook page isn't necessarily an indicator of either.
Personally I'd avoid posting much on FB of I was on long term sick leave, but that's more because I know how much people love the chance to think the worst of others, and that many people can't seem to understand that an illness or injury that prevents one from carrying on ones work, doesn't necessarily stop you seeing people or sunbathing.

But then I deliberately didn't have any colleagues as Facebook friends. Not even the ones I loved. My personal life wasn't up for staffroom gossip and the friends of friends thing makes it impossible to separate the two.

I was off sick for six weeks with work related stress - I was overworked and burned out, and had a breakdown. (Having been a very successful homeworkers for 13 years - it can happen to anyone). My GP signed me off after talking to me for half an hour through my tears, and insisted on a two pronged approach - sorting out my workload, which was double what it should be plus acting up; and having time away from work doing things which made me happy and were, in his words, fun.

You have no idea what’s going on in someone else’s life. Posting things on Facebook when friends with colleagues is a bit silly, given the judgmental attitude of people like you, but if she’s not fit to be at work, that’s not your business.

Unless you are a miner/similarly physical job, if you can go to the beach, you can go to work.

If you're really in HR, I fear for all of us.
At the same time, IME of HR, you sound quite typical, if a bit more frothing.

So many people off work with "work related stress or work related depression" - they should just quit if their jobs makes them feel that way as the job isn't going to change.

Okay I'll just quit my job and claim benefits instead then should I?

I'd love to quit my job. If only it were that simple.

At the same time, IME of HR, you sound quite typical, if a bit more frothing

Unfortunately I think you are right in most places however, at my current work my HR lady is absolutely lovely. When I've been going through these miscarriages she has been an absolute star. She has taken time to really listen to me, she has encouraged me to take time for myself because they wanted me back healthy, she would often talk to me after working hours about how her sister went through a similar thing and she genuinely seems to be rooting for me not as a manager but just as a fellow human being wanting to see another person succeed.

It makes me much more eager to get back to work and work hard for them.

I've felt like my work have genuinely shared in my happiness during the good times and been sad for me during the hard times. It's a nice feeling, being supported as a human rather than an expensive resource. They are a genuinely lovely company to work for. I tell you it really makes all the difference with staff motivation, we rarely have any problems with people being off for non genuine reasons or not working hard enough.

Fruit, that's so nice to hear and I'm glad you've been getting support.
I think HR CAN be excellent (and I mean not just for the staff they work with but for the company too – of course if benefits the company if staff are healthy, motivated and keen and able to work hard.

I just think it's extremely rare. Again, only in my experience and that of people I know.

Unfortunately I think it's common place now for employers to think they can treat their staff like shit and still expect maximum output, effort and dedication.

I do think it’s none of your business OP but, depending on the circumstances I could see why this irks you somewhat.

When I worked for a Local Authority people were regularly going off sick for various issues, sick pay was good, think full pay for the first 6 months. I never had to take time off.

Now working in the private sector a few years ago I broke my ribs, I would have only been paid SSP, so I ‘painfully’ dragged myself into work every day of the healing process. If I’d still worked in the Public Sector I would have definitely taken time off. Took about 8 weeks for me to totally heal.

There are lots of people who do take the piss but there are others who are genuine and for that reason I really wouldn’t judge just by seeing a few SM posts.

I just think it's extremely rare. Again, only in my experience and that of people I know

Oh I completely agree. I work in law and I've worked in some shocking firms in terms of management, workload and HR. I feel incredibly lucky to have finally found a firm that seems to appreciate their staff as human beings rather than numbers on a spreadsheet. As I say, I strongly believe it makes all the difference in how hard those employees will work for you too.

I do think that many people are far too ready to post everything they do on social media without being sufficiently selective about who can see it. It does encourage such judgements, not to mention that it lets your friendly neighbourhood burglar know when you (and anyone else whom you include in the picture) are away from home. But that is a separate issue.

'I can't think of any jobs less strenuous than lying on a beach.'

Lying on a beach, maybe. Getting to that beach in the first place could well be more strenuous!

Lucy sums it up; if you’re not paid, you drag yourself in. If you are paid, you stay home. It’s not the sickness that decides, it’s the employers charity!

My argument in a nutshell.