to suggest NOT wearing masks, but instead wearing . . .

[Durgasarrow]

the charmingly named Neck Gaitors? They have been my all-purpose solution to the Great Mask Dilemma of 2020. They're washable, lightweight, stylish, useful, versatile, you can wear them as a scarf and pull them up as needed, or as a hairband or even a bracelet if it's too constricting to keep it around your neck. They're cheap to order from Amazon by the half dozen--they have seriously helped me keep my sanity.

What an excellent post by @Alabamawhirly1

I'm not wearing a fucking mask to protect others, I'm covering my face when able as per the rule. You can't catch covid from me, because I don't fucking have covid. And even if I did and was asymptomatic, you still won't catch it off me from passing me in a shop, magic mask or no magic mask.

Same here.

In fact the only way you may catch covid of an asymptomatic stranger is if you start a slagging match with them in a shop when they haven't got a mask on. If you just ignore them and give them a wide birth they are no risk to you

This, a million times over.

Sorry - first Deborah Cohen link is duff - this should hopefully work:
twitter.com/deb_cohen/status/1282244768257499136

Note that this study has been saved to the web archive. It is no longer housed where it was first published, due to it being 'no longer relevant in our current climate'. - with no explanation as to why not

It was published in 2016 - that's why not.

The misuse of masks can lead to a greater chance of self-infection which I'd say is a major issue since you can only really pass COVID on from your sin-holes if you have it already yourself

But if it lowers the risk of passing on to others, then better than nothing.

The harms of mask wearing are not just the increased infections, but the increase of hate crimes against the exempt (those with disabilities

You can't legislate for knobheads and no it's not a harmful aspect of masks .

and many other things that loads won't have even thought of, such as the increased likelihood of falls which can be fatal the elderly

When they happen, it's be adjusted. I'm sure. Possibly some figures on fatal falls in the elderly in countries who routinely use masks?

OK then - What an excellent post by Echt.

Just asserting several potential 'harms' without evidence isn't researching a subject and being in a position to say masks do more harm than good.

By the way, I don't support UK government policy and actions over the last six-odd months.

I stocked up on a load of these for me and my son. As a biker i know how versatile they are and perfectly fit the "face covering" requirement.

Echt,

I've not read this properly and I know some parties have tried to discredit WHO which is somewhat worrying given WHOs efforts of non-COVID disease prevention in countries unable to fund public health sufficiently. At first glance, it seems even-handed and doesn't skirt around where there is uncertainty.

www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/transmission-of-sars-cov-2-implications-for-infection-prevention-precautions

Nature touches on this though might not carry the authority of Twitter:

www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02058-1

But if it lowers the risk of passing on to others, then better than nothing.

How does increasing the chance of infection lower the risk of passing it on?
Just asserting several potential 'harms' without evidence isn't researching a subject and being in a position to say masks do more harm than good

Masks increase the risk of infection. I've provided a link to the study.

It was published in 2016 - that's why not

Being four years old doesn't mean that it's wrong. Especially when there's been no decent evidence to refute it.

You can't legislate for knobheads and no it's not a harmful aspect of masks

No, you can't. But, it's a proven harmful aspect of a mask mandate.

When they happen, it's be adjusted. I'm sure. Possibly some figures on fatal falls in the elderly in countries who routinely use masks?

So, you want to wait until the injuries and death rates from falls rise before repealing the mandate eh? Niiiice. You're really thinking about the vulnerable, eh? All for that chance that they might be the one in 5000 that has corona, plus the chance that they'll pass it on asymptomatically, then the 3% chance that the mask might stop it?
Sounds really proportionate to me! /sarcasm
Also, I reckon few will make the connection between masks and falls so it likely won't be studied.

Nature touches on this though might not carry the authority of Twitter
Nature doesn't carry much more authority than Twitter in the Scientific community, and the man I linked to on Twitter is a cognitive scientist.

But if it lowers the risk of passing on to others, then better than nothing.

This review by the CDC found no evidence that facemasks reduce viral infection. Which is the same thing the 2016 study said, but this is from 2020
wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

However, I do agree with you that (bar the study saying that masks increasing the likelihood of infections) a lot of the dangers of masks are related to human behaviours around mask mandates, not the masks themselves.

I'll be more careful in what I say next time - it's mask mandates that do more harm than they do good.

PMSL at "Nature doesn't carry much more authority than Twitter in the Scientific community, and the man I linked to on Twitter is a cognitive scientist."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/09/how-journals-nature-science-cell-damage-science

www.changizi.com/uploads/8/3/4/4/83445868/changizi_cv.pdf

My friend did this but said it kept falling down so ordered masks. Like the logic though OP.

My dad uses a cravat or neck scarf thing. He wears it around his neck and just pulls it up on the bus or in shops. He says it's more comfortable than a mask, especially as he wears glasses and had just been fitted with hearing aids.

I started using a running buff as face covering but too hot at the back of my neck this time of year so went back to regular cloth masks

The government insist I am not allowed to wear a mask at work to protect myself or others there so to be honest part of me feels like why the fuck should I wear one in shops just because they say so. I do but to be honest I am annoyed at them telling me I must wear one in shops to protect random strangers whilst also saying I cannot wear one at work to protect people who I care for and about.

So, you want to wait until the injuries and death rates from falls rise before repealing the mandate eh? Niiiice. You're really thinking about the vulnerable, eh? All for that chance that they might be the one in 5000 that has corona, plus the chance that they'll pass it on asymptomatically, then the 3% chance that the mask might stop it?
Sounds really proportionate to me!

No need to be personal. You claim to cite data/research. I'm supporting data/research, which relies on things happening.

I'm supporting data/research, which relies on things happening.

How many deaths/injuries/added infections do we need to wait for before we repeal a mandate which states 'the evidence for masks is weak and the effects are likely to be small' right next to the fines for non-compliance?

If as Plimpy says, it’s all about faecal transmission ‘which is why it’s rife in hospitals, care homes & private homes’ then the type of mask that you wear is irrelevant I’d think. Just steer clear of any of the above and keep your own toilet clean.
If I had any HCPs in the family I’d be sure to tell them that they need to pay more attention to hand-washing based on Pliny’s assessment.

Hang on. It isn't as simple as masks increase fatal falls therefore more people will die if masks are compulsory.

Most fatal falls happen in the home, and part of the reason the falls are fatal is because the person wasn't found soon enough. No-one is proposing people wear masks at home.

How many fatal falls happen in the supermarket right now, without masks? Not so many and I would guess there are three main reasons for that:

1. falls are often fatal because the person who falls wasn't found soon enough. Not a problem in the milk aisle.
2. people at high risk of falling are less likely to be doing their own shopping. This is especially the case now.
3. when people at high risk of falling are in the supermarket doing their own shopping, they find it is brightly lit, without tripping hazards. Further, they are leaning on a trolley. And there are no bloody stairs in Sainsbury's.

Basis for pondering: one of my late parents fell a lot with long-term consequences. But it never happened in supermarkets.

@spermysextowel (love the name!) Have a look at this:
www.cebm.net/covid-19/sars-cov-2-and-the-role-of-orofecal-transmission-evidence-brief/

Not saying it's the only route of transmission, but it makes a lot of other stuff I've been reading, plus personal anecdata, make a lot of sense.

Basis for pondering: one of my late parents fell a lot with long-term consequences. But it never happened in supermarkets.

Yeah...but they weren't wearing masks were they?
If you expand the twitter thread I posted it goes into great detail about how we need feedback from our eyes as to what our feet are doing to be able to co-ordinate to walk properly (it's put way more scientifically than that, and there are diagrams and everything! The guy has literally written a book on it).
Not much of a problem adjusting for younger, fitter people, but for the elderly and frail - potentially very bad news.

I was just reading on another mask thread how a woman could no longer see her small children at foot in her peripheral vision with a mask on. Another potential cause for bad things to happen.

Basically, we aren't designed to have things over our faces, funnily enough.

Also OP - I've realised I've totally hijacked your thread with my mask warnings. Sorry. I've got a bit of a bee in my bonnet about people saying 'It's just a bit of cloth what's the harm?' - plenty, I think.

This is hyperbole to make a point but a relative risk increase of 4 times the base risk wouldn't be a concern if the risk (due to bright lighting, no tripping hazards, wearing outdoor shoes with grip, holding onto trolley) actually happened to equal zero (because 4x0=0).

I'm far more worried about the elderly people who have been voluntarily wearing masks+glasses (=condensation) to go cycling for months just in case someone breathes on them on the cycle path. I've got two of these.

I am very old.
Is what the OP referring to, what I would call a :
snood ?

If so, yes they were fashionable in the 80's. Retro! Great, bring them back!

Or hang on, weren't they banned? For h&s reasons?

@Alabamawhirly1 I like the "mind your own business" slogan idea - I'll put that as a label on my visor.

Sooner or later the unintended consequences of masks will start to show, and there will be a u-turn on them. There will be headlines when we see more masked robberies in shops, mark my words.
The robbers are plotting,
while we are frothing.

Some examples of the unintended consequences of masks I can see are:

1. Child (or other family member) tests positive. Parent knows they should self-isolate and fully intends to but has a meeting/presentation at work that would be difficult to rearrange so they go into work "only for the duration of the presenation" and then go straight home to start self-isolation afterwards. It's fine because they wore a mask.

1. Family member tests positive. Parent works for Dickhead Employer who informs them that the family member has tested positive but they themselves hasn't and will be expected at work, "just wear a mask, it'll be fine".

1. Family member tests positive. Parent works for Stressed Employer. Employer tells parent they already have two people off due to self-isolation and really cannot function with another employee off as they're short staffed "you're going to have to come in "just wear a mask and go home at the first sign of any symptoms, it'll be fine".

1. Self-employed person gets no sick pay, cannot afford to self-isolate for two weeks after months of furlough. Just wears mask to go about business as it's fine.

1. Person displaying symptoms needs bread and milk, doesn't feel all that unwell so goes to the shops "I wore a mask, it's fine".