To think this was school admission fraud ?

[Survivor12345]

We put our house on the market in 2015, knowing that a key selling point was its proximity (walking distance) to the most sought-after primary school in our area, and the fact that the secondary school in our town was the #1 choice for our part of the county (Hertfordshire).

Within 48 hours we had four full asking price offers, all from families with school-age children, as expected.

To avoid a chain, we chose the buyers who claimed to be 'living in rented accommodation' in another town whose two children, then aged approx. 7 and 5, attended the primary school near us.

We did wonder how come they had got in there, but didn't question it too much, concluding that it was not our business. They gushed over our house and claimed that they would be moving straight in when we moved out, were delighted to be sure of the secondary school places etc. etc.

They turned out to have lied about being 'in rented accommodation'; in fact, they owned the house they lived in in the other town, but 'Didn't like the schools there, they are too rough'.

Whatever, after discovering that they'd lied we were halfway through the sales process so had little choice but to continue with them, even though they ducked and dived trying to claim nonsense after their survey etc. We gave them one week to complete after their extortion attempts which they complied with, as they clearly didn't want to lose the house.

So we moved out on completion - and they have never moved into the place !

OK I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS, NEVERTHELESS, LYING IS LYING IS FRAUD AS I UNDERSTAND IT WHEN IT COMES TO SCHOOL PLACES ?

Since buying our former house, they have continued to live in their house in the other town and send their children to the town's two highly over-subscribed schools, thus, in our view, depriving two children from our town of two places at good schools near their genuine homes.

They have rented our former house out and continue to own it.

What I would like to know is, does this amount to school place application fraud?

We knew they were buying our house for its proximity to these good schools, but believed them when they said that they were going to move into it and live there.

We don't care what they do, but do believe that it's wrong to game the system like this. Our children are grown, and we're not familiar with the requirements for school applications.

AIBU to ask anyone else who has recent knowledge to tell me whether what they have done is just sharp practice, or is it downright unlawful, in which case, how do I report them?

I'm with you on the 'fraud' aspect OP.

I don't understand the posters who can't see that. Perhaps you have to live in an area where this sort of behaviour is rife to really appreciate how unfair it is. (I live in one such area!)

Presumably they performed some (similar?)trick to get the primary place and have now done it again for the secondary. I'm guessing they don't let to families of school aged children for obvious reasons.

In your shoes, i would be so torn. On one hand I'd be furious and feel duped, and angry on behalf of genuine families, but on the other, the kids are not to blame and if they are removed, it will be their education that suffers. It's a hard one to call.

I don't what Herts' rules say. If they say you must live in the house rather than just pay bills in it then it does sound as though they were not accurate.

The more i think about this, the more I think they probably did the same to get into the primary. They had a pot of money and bought a second home in the primary catchment area (and let it out), then as the kids moved up the school, they sold that property and used the pot of money for your house. They never have to move and they get in to the school they want.

Cheeky fuckers.

They bought OP's house and never moved in. It's quite clear (they even mentioned it when buying) that they were looking forward to a guaranteed secondary school place. You can't just own a house in a catchment area, you have to live there.

Anyone who is so hell-bent on getting a place at a particular secondary school that they buy a house in the area will know that simply owning a house isn't enough, and that admissions authorities do check these things carefully.

OP is only bothered now as I guess if this happened 5 years ago and the kids were about 5 and 7, they would now have applied for a secondary place for the oldest-possibly using the address of the house that they don't live in.

But OP doesn't even know whether they have applied, let alone whether they have got a place, let alone whether they've taken it. It's all a massive fuss over, potentially, absolutely nothing.

@SlightyJaded

The more i think about this, the more I think they probably did the same to get into the primary. They had a pot of money and bought a second home in the primary catchment area (and let it out), then as the kids moved up the school, they sold that property and used the pot of money for your house. They never have to move and they get in to the school they want.

Cheeky fuckers.

Notoriously it's an idiot's game to try that trick with primary aged children. Inevitably they would let the cat out of the bag at some point - or if they don't, their friends will.

But OP doesn't even know whether they have applied, let alone whether they have got a place, let alone whether they've taken it. It's all a massive fuss over, potentially, absolutely nothing

Or they have committed fraud🤷🏾‍♀️

If they haven't even applied, the council or whoever deals with it can throw out the case.

It's quite clear (they even mentioned it when buying) that they were looking forward to a guaranteed secondary school place.

It's just as likely they fed OP a load of bull to ensure she'd say yes to a sale and they always intended to rent it out/have it as an investment .

Perehaps @Pobblebonk

I have always wondered about the 'secondary-duplicity' in these situations. I mean once the school place is secured and you are then asking your children to continue with a lie day to day.

I live in a borough that has a notoriously high track record of this kind of behaviour and they are pretty hot around here (we know a family who rented to be close to an exceptional single sex state school, but were declined a place as they still owned another house in the borough etc. And I have personally had to fight for my DC to get into local schools - despite living a short walk from more than one outstanding school, because my street fell into a crack on admissions maps.

So I have no patience with people cheating applications.

In OPs case however, I would not report simply because it's been so long and the children will be settled and it's not their fault that their parents are CFs.

And to those who are suggesting that the they might not have committed fraud to get in - this is true - they may have got a SEN place or fulfilled some other criteria, but BUT based on where I live, you just cannot, for love nor money, get into the 'best' schools unless you are a spit from the gate. And even if you DO fall into a priority category, it's a battle.

Also, to be cynical, if they knew that they had special circumstances that meant a place was secure no matter what the address, then why buy a house that will no doubt have carried a premium, because of being in a catchment area - I mean if you don't need the catchment to secure your place....?

Unlikely.

Definitely report them. My DC gained a place when the local authority found out a family had lied about their address. The child was removed from the school immediately. It is so unfair on families like us who had lost out on our first choice school. We had to buy a whole new uniform for the new school.

Definitely report them
I don't understand the posters who can't see that. Perhaps you have to live in an area where this sort of behaviour is rife to really appreciate how unfair it is. (I live in one such area!)
But it's 5years later.
Op may have had a point in 2015
I think but that boat has sailed.
If this is a true post the OP is just shit stirring.

I came in to see if any update but no .
I'm just curious in what evidence to report them .
All she knows is they don't live in her house and how do you know they lied people just have a change circumstances so may have decided to not live in the house .
No evidence whatsoever or if there is she's not said what . Also it was 5 years ago .....
it's the most bizarre thing I've read on here .

@notacooldad

I did say that whilst I agreed with the OP in principle, it's too late now. Not fair on the children who aren't to blame and whose education will be interrupted because their parents are CFs ...

How do you know the eldest child got into this school?

How do you know the house is still a rental property?

How can they apply for a place at a school just by owning a house there? Surely you’ve got to live there - and be able to prove it?

How are they able to rent out a family sized house in a catchment for an over subscribed school and not attract renters who want to be there for the schools too?

OP doesn't know:
Whether the purchasers actually have children
Whether they even want their children to go to the local high school
Whether they have gone to the local school
Whether, if they have, the purchasers declared the right address or not
Whether, if they have, the children have got in perfectly correctly, e.g. under an EHCP
Where the purchasers currently live and whether that address gives them a right of entry in itself.

But people still want her to report the purchasers. I suppose it's one way to get yourself fast-tracked onto the council's list of potentially vexatious residents.

Am I missing something?

The children were already in the school? Explain exactly where fraud has occurred? Spell it out as I can’t see it?

Even if everything is true and the address has been used fraudulently to get the kids into the high school - the eldest will be in year 7 or 8 now won’t they? Would they exclude the child and then offer the place to the next child who just missed out?

I genuinely don’t think that would happen would it? It would have been better reporting them when the kid was still in year 6 surely?

@Helpplease222

Am I missing something?

The children were already in the school? Explain exactly where fraud has occurred? Spell it out as I can’t see it?

They weren't in that school. They were in a local primary that was also out of their catchment.

So they have somehow ended up in a 'desirable' primary and now a secondary despite living outside of the catchment. The 'fraud' was committed to get into the secondary. They used the OP's old house address despite not ever living there.

FWIW I agree with the OP, but it's too late now. You can't start disrupting someone's education after five years. Not fair on the children.

@Ginkpin again I just be missing something as I cannot see where it says that they are in the secondary school.
I also don’t know how the Op knows so much about her former buyers after 5 years either

I think its fraud, but five years later seems too long to wait to alert authorities.

I do think there needs to be a re-think as to how to stop and punish people for such behaviour.

Genuine fraud on application for school places should definitely be reported. Schools all over the country are tightening up on this. Some people do play the system by claiming to be living at an address but they usually get caught out.

But this doesn't seem to have happened here. OP - you have no way of knowing how these two particular children got their places. Maybe they are looked after children. Maybe the family used to live in catchment, moved, and thought about moving back. You really don't know and are leaping to conclusions.

All you know for sure OP is that they fibbed about being in rented - and again you have no idea why they did that. They may have fully intended to move into your old house but for whatever reasons their plans changed.

It's a bit of a reach to accuse them of fraud though OP when that's just one of loads of possibilities.

@Ginkpin

The 'fraud' was committed to get into the secondary. They used the OP's old house address despite not ever living there.

That's an assumption. OP has no idea and it's all based on "they lied to me " and "they probably lied to the primary school".

@Survivor12345

Tlollj yes, you have it exactly. They clearly lied to get them into the primary school, then bought our house to get them into the secondary while letting the house out and living in (what they described as) a poorer area.

I'm amazed at the level of defence of their lowlife behaviour, but you live and learn.

Just sad that kids are the victims of this level of selfishness.

You don't know that, @Survivor12345. That they "clearly" lied to get them into Primary. You're assuming - you have no proof.

OP how do you know so much about these people and their children 5 years on? Are you stalking them?

Even if you did report there would be no way for the council to ascertain whether they did actually live there 1/2 years ago (when they would have applied for secondary) or not. Don’t bother wasting their time.

It's good to see the responses on here which show that many people don't think that cheekyfuckery / sharp practice / being creative with the truth / lying / fraud, call it what you like, are acceptable, thank you to all those who have understood why I was motivated to report this family.

Yes, of course the worst case scenario is that two children whose parents may have used deception to gain their school places ahead of others who genuinely qualified for them, but I'm sure it's highly unlikely that they'll be marched out of class, they will just be in classes sized 35+ as in so many over-subscribed schools, to everyone's detriment in these situations.

I find it interesting that so many people think that a blind eye should be turned to practices which are tantamout to stealing; would the same people think it is OK for tangible property to be taken away from others?

Education is a commodity, and as we all know it is unfortunately of very highly variable quality in this country, leading to the practices so many have reported. Working the system is one thing eg honestly living at one address in order to get the eldest child into a school, but downright lying (if that is what happened) is entirely wrong and undermines existing systems.

Personally I would like to see levelling-up of education so that no parents have to resort to these tactics, and certainly there should be a stop to situations which many PPs have described where their children have lost out on deserved places to those who have cheated the system, but if that ever happens it will take time.

In the meantime, if the family have done nothing wrong they have nothing to fear; if they have, it is obviously up to HCC what they do with the information.